[ SECRET POST #348 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #348 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 100 secrets from Secret Submission Post #050.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, 0 not!secrets, 0 not!fandom, [ 1 2 ] repeats, [ 1 ] too big.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Thursday, December 20th, 2007.
Current Secret Submission Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

It makes me wonder if any of the staunch proponents of drabbles would be thrilled to receive a drabble for, say, their yuletide exchange gift. Come on, people, just admit it's nice when a writer puts effort into something that obviously doesn't look like it took ten minutes to crank out.

The only problem I have with people who put out ten drabbles a day without maintaining a distinct general level of quality is that I feel they just can't wait to get something done and throw it out there. I totally agree with you that most fic is essentially a bid for attention (and anyone who doesn't want to admit that really needs to re-examine), but that's an urge that needs to be fought. It's the same thing with longfic authors who put out crappy little chapters for reviews - the total word count adds up, but the fic itself isn't any better for it.

[forchancookie.livejournal.com]

I can hear the wanking now. XD

Wow, you understand! Internet cookies for you!

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

It makes me wonder if any of the staunch proponents of drabbles would be thrilled to receive a drabble for, say, their yuletide exchange gift.

I don't know about Yuletide itself, but fic exchanges usually have a minimum word count in the rules, so that example doesn't really work.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

It's the sentiment that I'm trying to bring across, not the specific example. And if not Yuletide, I'm sure there are other exchanges where word limits are not specified - I am, at the moment, participating in one. No matter how nice a drabble might be, I think in those cases, common courtesy dictates that you try for something longer.

And moreover, you have to wonder, why would Yuletide and others of its kind set out such a word floor, if drabbles would suffice just as well.

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

And moreover, you have to wonder, why would Yuletide and others of its kind set out such a word floor, if drabbles would suffice just as well.

Actually, that's precisely why I said it wasn't a good example. You wouldn't post a drabble in a fic exchange, no. But you wouldn't post a long fic in a drabble community either. It has nothing to do with the overall quality, it's just that there's a time and a place for each of those kinds.

And if an author posts ten drabbles a day and they're not all good... what's the problem? It's practice. If the problem is the spam, then the length of the fic has nothing to do with it.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

I was hoping someone would bring that up. I think that length has everything to do with it, and this is precisely why I spoke of drabbles glutting fandom earlier. Of course, both drabbles and longer stories are fanfic, and if you go by the logic that "fanfic sucks", then both of those kinds should suck alike. However, you can see that between a crappy drabble and a crappy 5000-word story, the former is usually the one that gets spammed around. It's only natural, because if you were never going to put any effort into the story, then the shorter one is easier to write.

If you challenged me right now to write a drabble or a short story, disregarding quality altogether, I think I'll be able to come up with about five shortish generic somethings before I finish one long generic thing (which, after all, does take some time to put together and type up). So I do think that spamming is worse with shorter low-quality works, and even if it is practice, if you run across fifteen crappy posts by the same author in just one day, for everyday of the week, it does get a little irritating.

And I don't think that posting a long fic in a drabble community is in anyway similar to giving a drabble in a fic exchange. A drabble community is strictly for drabbles, for people who want to write drabbles and read drabbles and improve at writing drabbles: posting a fic would be against the rule. A fic exchange is about giving and receiving; the only reason to set a length floor would be because generally, people feel like you've put in more effort if they can see it. The first case is about function; the second is about etiquette.

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

However, you can see that between a crappy drabble and a crappy 5000-word story, the former is usually the one that gets spammed around.
Not necessarily. There are people who post all their drabbles in one post and keep editing. There are people who write daily 2000+ chapters for their fic and crosspost them to every community in the fandom. I haven't seen more spam with drabbles, on the other hand: I've usually found they stay in the respective comms (the whateverfandom100 ones) or drabble memes. I guess this might vary from fandom to fandom, but I honestly haven't seen general fanfic comms spammed with drabbles, or writing journals with one drabble per post.

But you're still assuming that people write drabbles because they don't want to make the effort to write something longer. Of course longer stories are more difficult to write (good drabbles aren't easy, but they're still easier than good novel-length stories, IMHO) but if you're not going to put effort in writing, you're not going to put it in anything. That's where we're never going to agree, I suppose. I see writing drabbles as a choice of style, not a "let's see how many things I can post in the same day" issue.

A drabble community is strictly for drabbles, for people who want to write drabbles and read drabbles and improve at writing drabbles: posting a fic would be against the rule. A fic exchange is about giving and receiving; the only reason to set a length floor would be because generally, people feel like you've put in more effort if they can see it. The first case is about function; the second is about etiquette.
I see your point, but I still think it wasn't the best example. People wouldn't be "thrilled to receive a drabble" in a fic exchange because it's not what they are expecting, not because drabbles are inherently "worse" than longer fics. It has more to do with the situation than with quality in general.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

But you're still assuming that people write drabbles because they don't want to make the effort to write something longer.

Let's just get one thing straight. I have never in the course of this entire exchange expressed anything even remotely like this opinion. I think you're either misunderstanding altogether, or intentionally twisting my words. In any case, here's a rundown of points I have made: drabbles are hard to write well in their own rights; not many people are actually that good at writing drabbles (possibly because, again, they are hard); I like reading good drabbles, but hate being spammed with a lot of short mediocre stories; people in fic exchange prefer longer stories, leading the exchanges themselves to set up rules about word limits to that effect; and finally, a bad drabble is easier and takes less time to write than a bad story of considerable length (a point which I still stand by, as not only is this my personal experience, but it also seems quite logical just as).

In fact, I don't even think longer stories are generally more difficult to write, and I don't recall saying that - it was you who said that I thought this, not I. Please don't take my comparison of the bad drabble and the correspondingly bad story and try to turn it around: it doesn't work like that. I do not seek to compare good drabbles to longer stories in any other aspect other than the fic exchange scenario, because I think writing a good drabble and writing a good short story or novel are completely different talents, and what is more, it depends on the writer. I am only interested in quality, so as long as someone writes consistently good drabbles (which, in my experience, I have found to be rare, and consider to be an unfortunate state of affair), I don't give a hoot if they never try anything else or spam my flist to hell and back, I will welcome their works with open arms.

On the final point, the only thing I can say to you is that what that situation boils down to me is: drabbles have their time and place. It's not the same as posting a fic in a drabble community, that's just plain wrong. But as good as a drabble maybe, in some cases, it's just not enough - if for no other reason than that it's short - and I think a fic exchange is one of those cases. The point is not that because a drabble is posted in a fic exchange, it's wrong - but rather that while a drabble should be just fine for an exchange, people generally refrain from doing so. There's a slight but important difference.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

And because I can already anticipate all the counterarguments that will, again, not actually address anything I've said in any of my comments, and would rather not have to roll my eyes any longer about this, here are a few bottom lines:

- Writing a good drabble & writing a good story of some length: not the same skill.

- However, a bad drabble is easier to write than an equally bad fic - yes, because it is shorter - hence there are usually more bad drabbles being spammed around. For certain fandoms, I have checked. This annoys me. If people started writing tons of long badfic and spammed them around, that would annoy me too, but for the time being the drabbles are suffering more for it.

- In fic exchanges, people don't usually give drabbles. This has nothing to do with how good you are as a writer, but is only about evening out the playing field, curtailing the potentially awkward situation.

And for God's sake, stop telling me that I hate drabbles and think all drabble writers are lazy. I like drabbles, but if you guys keep trying, you might as well reverse-reverse-psychology me into hating them. I hate the bad drabbles that glut some fandoms. And you know what, sometimes I actually do wish some drabble writers would try something longer. Know why? Because I think they are good writers, and wonder what a long fic from them would be like. Not because I find the drabbles lacking.

People, please don't reply unless you have a new point to make. You've already made me regurgitate my own points over and over; I won't do the same to you.

[forchancookie.livejournal.com]

And if an author posts ten drabbles a day and they're not all good... what's the problem? It's practice.

You say it's practice, but a lot of these other people are saying it's not. That is the whole of what they produce and they feel like that is all they need to produce.

[laurus-nobilis.livejournal.com]

I guess I didn't make myself clear - I didn't mean drabbles are practice for something longer, I meant the bad or mediocre drabbles are practice for the good ones.

[(Anonymous)]

Some of us put hours into our drabbles. Please don't lump us all together. an author who has put a significant effort into their drabble shows through in their final product.

but at least thank you for also acknowledging that the crappy 'churn out crap' writing doesn't just happen with drabbles but also longer works.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

I said nothing of the sort. From the beginning, my argument was always for quality. Of course if someone puts effort into their work and it shows, no one would have any complaint. That would be a good drabble. But most of the time, this just isn't the case. I know that badfic comes in all forms, but the drabble style is more susceptible - first, because it is hard to get right, and second, because a bad drabble takes much less time and effort than even a bad story of considerably longer length. For that reason alone, there're usually more of them.

[alexander.livejournal.com]

On that, actually!

It makes me wonder if any of the staunch proponents of drabbles would be thrilled to receive a drabble for, say, their yuletide exchange gift. Come on, people, just admit it's nice when a writer puts effort into something that obviously doesn't look like it took ten minutes to crank out.

I know I'd love to receive a collection of drabbles. As a drabble writer and someone who has done drabble collections for people -- and I guess I'm not an exclusive drabble writers as I've done gift-fic as well, but even my gift fic tends to be segmented. So, my preference is pretty clear XD; And I do hear you on the just volume/appreciation of a gift, but gift exchange is also just a bit weirder because you spend, for me, more time focusing on what the giftee wants, not what you want to write, necessarily.

But I've already admitted my weakness as a drabble-mostly writer and won't argue you on the fact that I can pump out a drabble far faster than I can pump out a longfic. I just usually think my drabbles are higher quality.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

True. But a collection of drabbles is not exactly the same thing as one lone drabble. You do make a good point about pruning the story to the taste of the recipient, but I still think that, unless someone explicitly asks for a drabble, no one would write just the one 100-word thing for an exchange. A collection maybe, if that's allowed. There's also an extent to how far you should go to please the other person; you should still stick with your strengths. If someone is a known good writer of drabbles and hasn't written much else, I would rather receive a collection of drabbles from them, because not only would they feel more comfortable writing but I know the quality of the gift will be better for it. Just. Not one drabble. It's a really touchy issue, but there it is XD

I can pump out a drabble far faster than I can pump out a longfic. I just usually think my drabbles are higher quality.

I think this is much of the same point I first made somewhere all the way up there, actually. Yeah, it is: I also have no problem with a known good writer of drabbles putting out nothing but shorts. I think the real issue is skill. :)

[alexander.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I haven't read most of the other comments in this post XD; So I apologize for making a redundant point.

I totally agree on the gift thing. I... I can't even imagine just submitting a drabble. I mean, I also can't imagine just submitting a medium length fic either XD; Because gifts are a pretty touchy area |D

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

It's cool. I was just getting very tired of repeating the same thing over and over in some other comments because people either choose to misconstrue their meaning or just ignore them altogether. I wonder how it is that just by saying I dislike a certain aspect of drabbledom, I automatically seem to some like an out-and-out hater who fails to see the light of day.

[alexander.livejournal.com]

I admit when I saw the secret my initial reaction was exactly as follows:

....

):

):

>OOOOO

):

Only, with not emoticons. But as someone who pretty much defines her writing by flash fiction it's like a kick to the kidneys XD But yeah, once I got over the initial >O and ): I totally see the valid points people have been making. I just need a bandaid for my kidneys XD

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

I don't like that secret. It's intentionally rude, and I highly suspect it might actually be wankbait. But it did remind me of the one thing that always bugged me about the drabble situation - hey, nothing's perfect :)