[ SECRET POST #2920 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2920 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Sleepy Hollow]


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Notes:

Just as a heads up, no post tomorrow! Big family event thing, I don't think I'll be able to post. Regular updates resume Friday and on!

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 011 secrets from Secret Submission Post #417.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe they hated Jews more than other people

They actually kind of did. I'd recommend brushing up on history, because anti-Jewish vitriol was really clear and present. It doesn't minimize anything else in the war - the death toll was astronomical, there was wholesale slaughter of other groups, and let's not even get started on what happened in East Asia - but a special, horrible corner being reserved for Jew killing was definitely a thing.
Understanding history and specific racial bias isn't Oppression Olympics.

[(Anonymous)]

The existence of anti-jewish vitriol does not in and of itself prove that the Nazis had a unique hatred for the Jews

I tend to think they actually did but in a way that was more in line with their general policies and ideologies toward everyone and less in line with the hatred that all non-Jewish people have always had for Jews according to this thread

[(Anonymous)]

Nazi writings and behavior pertaining the Jews prove that they had a unique hatred for them.

but either way,you can't disconnect Nazism from nearly 2000 years of Jew-hating. It was an ideology that was worse than others, yes, and more capable and concentrated than others, but it didn't come out of nowhere.
Part of the reason it succeeded was because of rampant hatred for the Jews, they just legitimized it. You can't say that "oh, most of Europe really hated Jews but Nazism had nothing to do with that".
But if you really want to learn, I recommend reading actual books on the subject rather than trusting a silly thread in f!s.

[(Anonymous)]

but either way,you can't disconnect Nazism from nearly 2000 years of Jew-hating.

I can and do disconnect it. This is precisely what I think: that modern 19th and 20th century antisemitism was a distinct thing and not simply the culmination of a tradition or the result of something intrinsic to Christian European society.

It was an ideology that was worse than others, yes, and more capable and concentrated than others, but it didn't come out of nowhere.

Yes, that is true, insofar as modern antisemitism was fairly widespread through Europe, but that doesn't entail a continuity with every incident of antisemitism everywhere.

Part of the reason it succeeded was because of rampant hatred for the Jews, they just legitimized it. You can't say that "oh, most of Europe really hated Jews but Nazism had nothing to do with that".

Again, yes and no. It is true that there were many places in Europe that were fundamentally antisemitic, and that this helped the Nazis, but it's equally true that there were places that weren't. See for reference Italy, Denmark, and Bulgaria, none of which gave up many Jews at all to the Nazis. And I think that's kind of a problem for an argument that wants to talk about a general and continuous European antisemitism.

More broadly, I would contend, again, that the fact that there was antisemitism in Europe dies not imply that all antisemitism is part of precisely the same body and all of a kind.

But if you really want to learn, I recommend reading actual books on the subject rather than trusting a silly thread in f!s. 

I have, in fact, read actual books on the matter as well as taken classes on it (if you'd like to insult my sources instead of me, I'm mostly following Hilberg and Arendt). But I am sure you are right & there's just no way someone could disagree with you without being ignorant or villainous.

[diet_poison]

This is a better way of putting what I was trying to say. Thank you.

(Re-reading my comment it feels kinda dumb because of course they hated the Jews especially; their whole platform was "kill the Jews because all of our economic problems are their fault!". I was more trying to point out that this doesn't erase the hate they also had for other groups and which also resulted in horrific deaths. All deaths in the Holocaust are equally tragic, even if all groups weren't targeted with equal intensity.)

[diet_poison]

I think the way I worded that comment was really dumb and I apologize for that. They did definitely hate Jews more than other groups.

because anti-Jewish vitriol was really clear and present. It doesn't minimize anything else in the war - the death toll was astronomical

This is why I wanted to see that other conversation - because I don't really know what was going on, but given how people can get about topics like this, it kinda sounded like it was arguing over whether the deaths of other targeted people were as important, because why else would you be arguing about who the Nazis hated most? The Jews were the biggest victims numerically, but no individual's death was more tragic than any other's (after adjusting for things like how torturous is was).

...now I feel kind of icky for taking a mathematical approach to historical death by torture

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for this comment. Tbh when I saw your other one I was like "seriously??", because you're normally pretty level-headed, even though I don't always agree with you.

WWII was a horrible, horrible war, and millions of people died in horrible ways. I believe it's important to talk about all of them (as much as that's possible), and it's important to understand the stories and remember individuals. At the same time, too often conversations about the Jewish side are derailed by people going "yeah well other people died too!", as if that in some way makes anything better. It's just a derailment tactic.

[diet_poison]

At the same time, too often conversations about the Jewish side are derailed by people going "yeah well other people died too!", as if that in some way makes anything better. It's just a derailment tactic.

Yeah, I can see how this would be SUPER frustrating.

I guess without the context of the other convo we'll never know for sure. But thanks for pointing this out - it's an important part of the overall picture.