[ SECRET POST #2920 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2920 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Sleepy Hollow]


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Notes:

Just as a heads up, no post tomorrow! Big family event thing, I don't think I'll be able to post. Regular updates resume Friday and on!

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 011 secrets from Secret Submission Post #417.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[diet_poison]

I'd be interested in seeing that discussion.

Nazis hated a lot of people. Maybe they hated Jews more than other people (in fact it wouldn't surprise me) but trying to argue that as a sticking point just sounds like Oppression Olympics to me.

[(Anonymous)]

*high fives diet poison*

I actually get a strong impression that ayrt is a troll but who knows, I'm not unbiased here

[(Anonymous)]

That's sarcasm, right? Right?

[diet_poison]

If you have to ask, you know the answer.

What part of what I said do you disagree with, specifically, anon?

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe they hated Jews more than other people (in fact it wouldn't surprise me) but trying to argue that as a sticking point just sounds like Oppression Olympics to me

Wow. You really think that arguing that Jewish people were primarily targeted during the Holocaust is opression olympics? They didn't "maybe" hate Jews more than other people, they definitely did and their primary goal was to "cleanse" the world of Jewish people. Getting rid of every other person they found "undesirable" was just a sweet bonus and anti-Jewish sentiment began way before the Holocaust. A bunch of psychos decided that Jewish people literally had a conspiracy to control the world and even before Hitler was around, people argued that Jews should be exterminated for the good of Germany (Ahlwardt wrote a whole damn book about it that was a best seller in 1912). Nearly 2/3 of the European Jewish population was wiped out by the end of the Holocaust with over six million Jewish people dead. It's true that around five million other people died as well, but that number is divided among many other groups of people rather than just one. Saying that Jewish people were especially targeted during the Holocaust doesn't devalue the horrific deaths of the disabled, POWs, Polish, homosexuals, etc put to death by the Nazis, it's just pointing out a fact.

[(Anonymous)]

Getting rid of every other person they found "undesirable" was just a sweet bonus

This is at best an extremely contentious claim and one that I personally would pretty much categorically disagree with

It's true that around five million other people died as well, but that number is divided among many other groups of people rather than just one. 

two points here. First, for a bunch of different reasons, the non Jewish death total is much more difficult to calculate than the Jewish death total. I've heard academics I respect (who, if it matters at all, are themselves Jewish) go as high as 14 million non Jewish victims. Second, that doesn't in itself prove the kind of unique role of antisemitism you're arguing for here. Nor does the existence of antisemitism in Germany society beforehand - there was plenty of vitriol against a lot of different groups including Slavs that you could point to.

I do happen to think that antisemitism was central to Nazi ideology in a unique way but it's hardly something you can take as a given

[(Anonymous)]

...what? How is it Oppression Olympics to just point out that Nazis clearly had a stronger/more pervasive bias as a whole towards Jewish people than towards other groups? That's just a historically supported fact, it doesn't mean that the other victims don't matter. That would be like telling everyone who talks about the history of oppression against African Americans in the U.S. to shut up because Chinese Americans also suffered discrimination and had oppressive laws passed against them which means that their suffering was equal. Of course there was a lot of racist shit against Chinese Americans and other Asian immigrants, but that doesn't mean that African Americans didn't have even more shit thrown at them. Those are just facts.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe they hated Jews more than other people

They actually kind of did. I'd recommend brushing up on history, because anti-Jewish vitriol was really clear and present. It doesn't minimize anything else in the war - the death toll was astronomical, there was wholesale slaughter of other groups, and let's not even get started on what happened in East Asia - but a special, horrible corner being reserved for Jew killing was definitely a thing.
Understanding history and specific racial bias isn't Oppression Olympics.

[(Anonymous)]

The existence of anti-jewish vitriol does not in and of itself prove that the Nazis had a unique hatred for the Jews

I tend to think they actually did but in a way that was more in line with their general policies and ideologies toward everyone and less in line with the hatred that all non-Jewish people have always had for Jews according to this thread

[(Anonymous)]

Nazi writings and behavior pertaining the Jews prove that they had a unique hatred for them.

but either way,you can't disconnect Nazism from nearly 2000 years of Jew-hating. It was an ideology that was worse than others, yes, and more capable and concentrated than others, but it didn't come out of nowhere.
Part of the reason it succeeded was because of rampant hatred for the Jews, they just legitimized it. You can't say that "oh, most of Europe really hated Jews but Nazism had nothing to do with that".
But if you really want to learn, I recommend reading actual books on the subject rather than trusting a silly thread in f!s.

[(Anonymous)]

but either way,you can't disconnect Nazism from nearly 2000 years of Jew-hating.

I can and do disconnect it. This is precisely what I think: that modern 19th and 20th century antisemitism was a distinct thing and not simply the culmination of a tradition or the result of something intrinsic to Christian European society.

It was an ideology that was worse than others, yes, and more capable and concentrated than others, but it didn't come out of nowhere.

Yes, that is true, insofar as modern antisemitism was fairly widespread through Europe, but that doesn't entail a continuity with every incident of antisemitism everywhere.

Part of the reason it succeeded was because of rampant hatred for the Jews, they just legitimized it. You can't say that "oh, most of Europe really hated Jews but Nazism had nothing to do with that".

Again, yes and no. It is true that there were many places in Europe that were fundamentally antisemitic, and that this helped the Nazis, but it's equally true that there were places that weren't. See for reference Italy, Denmark, and Bulgaria, none of which gave up many Jews at all to the Nazis. And I think that's kind of a problem for an argument that wants to talk about a general and continuous European antisemitism.

More broadly, I would contend, again, that the fact that there was antisemitism in Europe dies not imply that all antisemitism is part of precisely the same body and all of a kind.

But if you really want to learn, I recommend reading actual books on the subject rather than trusting a silly thread in f!s. 

I have, in fact, read actual books on the matter as well as taken classes on it (if you'd like to insult my sources instead of me, I'm mostly following Hilberg and Arendt). But I am sure you are right & there's just no way someone could disagree with you without being ignorant or villainous.

[diet_poison]

This is a better way of putting what I was trying to say. Thank you.

(Re-reading my comment it feels kinda dumb because of course they hated the Jews especially; their whole platform was "kill the Jews because all of our economic problems are their fault!". I was more trying to point out that this doesn't erase the hate they also had for other groups and which also resulted in horrific deaths. All deaths in the Holocaust are equally tragic, even if all groups weren't targeted with equal intensity.)

[diet_poison]

I think the way I worded that comment was really dumb and I apologize for that. They did definitely hate Jews more than other groups.

because anti-Jewish vitriol was really clear and present. It doesn't minimize anything else in the war - the death toll was astronomical

This is why I wanted to see that other conversation - because I don't really know what was going on, but given how people can get about topics like this, it kinda sounded like it was arguing over whether the deaths of other targeted people were as important, because why else would you be arguing about who the Nazis hated most? The Jews were the biggest victims numerically, but no individual's death was more tragic than any other's (after adjusting for things like how torturous is was).

...now I feel kind of icky for taking a mathematical approach to historical death by torture

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for this comment. Tbh when I saw your other one I was like "seriously??", because you're normally pretty level-headed, even though I don't always agree with you.

WWII was a horrible, horrible war, and millions of people died in horrible ways. I believe it's important to talk about all of them (as much as that's possible), and it's important to understand the stories and remember individuals. At the same time, too often conversations about the Jewish side are derailed by people going "yeah well other people died too!", as if that in some way makes anything better. It's just a derailment tactic.

[diet_poison]

At the same time, too often conversations about the Jewish side are derailed by people going "yeah well other people died too!", as if that in some way makes anything better. It's just a derailment tactic.

Yeah, I can see how this would be SUPER frustrating.

I guess without the context of the other convo we'll never know for sure. But thanks for pointing this out - it's an important part of the overall picture.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel like the Nazis' hatred of Jews was their weirdest hatred. [facetiousness] Socialists are political opponents, Slavs are furriners, gays are icky, disabled people are a burden on the state, people who fight you have to be gotten out of the way [/facetiousness] -- all that is pretty much same old, same old. But Jews could be tenth-generation German-born, totally assimilated, veterans of WWI with the Iron Cross, and the Nazis still wanted to kill them. What the hell.

I think Nazi anti-Semitism was sort of the offspring of their general eugenics and extermination policy and long-term European anti-Semitism, which was equally weird.

However! The Nazis weren't good Christians. They were anti-Christian, actually, and would have been more openly anti-Christian if they weren't worried about the backlash.

[(Anonymous)]

This is because the Nazi brand of antisemitism (and of race more broadly, but it's most central in antisemitism) is not about tribalism in the way you're talking about with the other groups, and it's in no way about a rational calculation of opposition and support. It is about an idea of race and blood as absolute factors which determine being, which determine society, which determine history. Race for the Nazi has an absolute claim - it is the thing which structures the world, in the Se way that class and economic factors determine history and society for significant parts of Marxism.

So any of the considerations you're outlining here are beside the point. It's not a matter of what someone proclaims to believe - it's a matter of the destiny of nations, nations understood as these supra-rational things, and of blood. And thus by the way is precisely why 19th century antisemitism is different from earlier antisemitism.

Imo anyway.

However! The Nazis weren't good Christians. They were anti-Christian, actually, and would have been more openly anti-Christian if they weren't worried about the backlash.

This is correct imo, but given that someone itt apparently believes that the Nazis were the logical heirs of Catholicism or something, I'm not sure how far you'll get with it.