fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #360 ]

[ SECRET POST #360 ]

⌈ Secret Post #360 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 08 pages, 192 secrets from Secret Submission Post #052.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 linked back to the page ] broken links, [ 1 2 ] not!secrets, [ 1? 2? ] not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 ] repeats, [ 1 ] probably not for real.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Tuesday, January 1st, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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... I'm not even a part of this community, I just have been lurking more frequently since I got a better internet connection and can actually *see* the secrets.

I only skimmed this thread - saw 16 and immediately thought "Oh, crap, this poor person is going to get reamed." I skimmed the first three pages of comments, and I was right.

I actually have some writing advice for the OP, if they are willing to listen to it.

I am a Christian, too, though probably not a good one (haven't been to church in over a year, I think, have a few beliefs that my old Baptist church probably wouldn't like...) Now, I think your sentiment is very cute, and I'd be lying if I said I hadn't felt the same way at times. However, I remember that the characters I work with are fiction and that their eternal destinies are whatever their earthly creators have in mind - if they have anything in mind at all. Of course, many characters live in worlds very different than ours with different kinds of religions and worldsets/i.e. "Christianity doesn't apply."

I tend to think "Good characters will have a favorable afterlife if any because that's probably what their creator has in mind." In any case, they are fiction, so it's not really worth worrying about.

As far as writing the spiritual lives of characters, however - be careful. Very few people like preaching, even those who share your religion (I dislike it). Conversion fics are especially difficult, and appeal to a limited auience (the rest will generally flame you, as I'm sure you know). My advice is to stick with characters where it is plausible. Say, a canon wherein a character who is not portrayed as particularly religious, but has a scene where, depressed, he goes into a Christian church seeking the forgiveness of God, perhaps he decides that he is unforgivable, but I'd say that writing this character as a Christian in a fic that draws his spiritual side out would be believable.

Edward Elric, of FMA, who outright proclaims that he "doesn't believe in God" is going to be much, much harder to work with. You'd have to have a LOT of exposition as to why he'd even consider converting and it would be very difficult.

The characters of "Avatar: The Last Airbender" - well, I wouldn't even bring Christianity into the picture. They live in their own world with its own mythology and spiritual goings on, Christianity (like any "our Earth" religion) is no doubt unheard of and to bring it in there would constitue a complete messing with the world.

Privately? Think what you wish, come up with any fantasies about your favorite characters that you wish, but it's not always a wise idea to write out and share those fantasies. Religion in fanfics is something you have to be careful with. Sometimes, it *does* constitute a complete out of character change for a character - it's not to say it can't be done, but it takes work to be believable to most, and some will never be convinced. It's kind of like shipping - no matter what you do, be prepared for detractors. In the end, if you choose to write of it, it is best to try to explore it in characters who are already of the religion in their canon, or who are close to it/where it doesn't seem like it would be a great leap. Even then, it takes a delicate hand not to offend a majority.

Good post. Shame it's buried all the way on page 6. I give it my Agnostic Stamp of Approval.

Write however you wish to write. There'll always be haters, but hey--if it makes you happy, keep on trucking. No one's making them read your fics. Conversely, no one's making them like it, despite your best efforts. Just be prepared for flames.

In after a lot of atheists who seem to take fanfic way too seriously.

And thank you for being so polite. I don't think all the people angsting over 16 are atheists, though. I believe I saw some pagan folks, and I imagine some folks of "generalized" beliefs. A lot of them seem to be going "Ah! Intolerance!" over a misunderstanding of Christian doctrine presented, which I think Queenie Z (was it her?) explained quite masterfully.

As it is... I'm wishing people would stop CONTRIBUTING to the obnoxious collective sense of persecution on the part of American Christians - screaming "intolerance!" "Bigot!" and "idiot!" at us for every little difference in doctrine from the "norm" isn't exactly good for normalizing us and making us more "tolerant."

That said, getting really worked up over the speculated-upon eternal fates of fictional characters we do not own is kind of silly, but who among us hasn't done silly things in fandom? I've gone to a message board to start treads about the deep philosophical messages in an anime series about science fiction gunslingers in the future. And I'm proud of it.

It's just, as Jafaria said earlier in the thread, if the OP cannot write fanfiction *without* drastically alterting all characters to be or become Christian (at least without a lot of believable exposition), there are some series they'll be best not to muck around with.

That said, I do vaguely recall hearing about some pagan-themed fanfics along a similar vein... Characters being turned into pagans because the author was pagan and wanted them to be pagan.

Heheheheh, I did?? I'm flattered...! ^^;;;

That said, I do vaguely recall hearing about some pagan-themed fanfics along a similar vein... Characters being turned into pagans because the author was pagan and wanted them to be pagan.

Definitely. I've seen that in Harry Potter fandom a lot, usually done by girls in their early who think witch = Wicca and Wicca is so cool they absolutely must write about it. (For that reason I have the impression the 16 OP is quite young as well.) I'm a Wiccan, and inserting religion in accordance with one's own beliefs always bothers me, not necessarily because I think it's intolerant or preachy, but because most of the time, it sticks out like a sore thumb and pulls me out of the story.

I agree with your original point that writers wanting to do that should be very careful, and if in doubt keep the fic to themselves.

*girls in their early TEENS

Yeah. I've had advice along such lines in regards to original writing, to not preach but to "let your faith color your writing." All I know is that I much preffered "The Chronicles of Narnia" and "The Lord of the Rings" and like books with more "subtle faith and allegory" over the parts of the "Left Behind" series that I've read.

Subtlety seems to play an even bigger role in fanfiction, particuarly since you aren't playing in your own sandbox - you have to respect the canon creator's sandbox (to a degree). (Nevermind that I don't think a lot of people respect the established sexualities of characters in some of those sandboxes enough, but that's a whole other drippy ball of wank). Religion is the most touchy of subjects in many cases, and using characters as a mouthpiece for *any* kind of religious or political viewpoint gets old fast (unless, of course, said canon character already fits the role).

I find the OP's secret rather sweet, although silly, (and I do also think that he/she must be young and new in online fandom/fanfiction), and just needed some friendly writing advice (rather than all the flaming).

Of course, because of all the flaming, I'm wondering if s/he's going to be like I was, back in my teenage years of being a Christian and turn on Pat Robertson, nod and agree that "Yes, the world really, really hates us, I just got confirmation of that" instead of trying to be out in the world/get along in society.

*claps* I, too, wish that this wasn't buried all the way back on page six. :/ I admit, I thought the secret was funny. Not in a pathetic way, not in a offensive way, just sort of silly. I feel absolutely terrible for the OP's behalf in regards to all the comments.

It is worth noting, though, that a lot of the protest raised against the secret is entirely--I'm not sure how to put it. "Don't make Avatar characters Christian," etc. - the secret didn't mention what sort of fandoms were involved. Or even that he/she writes conversion 'fics - to me it seems like a big deal out of a very small, inspecific secret.

A part of me cynically does wonder if it's because the secret was about Christianity - if the amount of flames and comments would be the same if Judaism or Paganism or Buddhism was the religion in question. I mean. I'm sure there would be wank regardless, but I've noticed a definite trend of... "all Christians are close-minded and ignorant." Especially in a place like LJ where by and large the people are liberal, feminist, etc. A sort of punch-jerk reaction? A part of me thinks that if the post had been about Jewish characters, the amount of wank would be slightly less.

/pointless speculation.

~~I may very well come to regret this...~~

From reading responses to a multitude of secrets, it seems safe to say that the majority of people responding are from, if not necessarily the US, then fundamentally similar parts of the world, such as Canada or England. And, as you say, by and large liberal, feminist, etc.

I agree with you that the wank would probably be less if it were about a different religion, not because the majority find those other religions more acceptable, but because they are not as familiar with them (unless the respondents are theology majors, in which case I apologize). It seems the main problem most people have with Christianity is their beliefs in regards to homosexuals (sin), feminism (submit to your husband), and the 'my particular religion or Hell' mentality. But most other religions, or at least the major ones mentioned, also follow those beliefs in their own way. To steal a phrase, 'familiarity breeds contempt.' I think the reason Christianity draws more wank than the rest is due to the simple fact that the people responding probably know more about it, so feel more comfortable disregarding it. My two cents, anyway.

~~Regret is for weaklings!~~

I agree with you. Or rather, you managed to say what I was thinking in a way that is coherent - something I'm not good at, ever. I grew up in Vermont, which prides itself on being crazily left-wing -- and I definitely grew up noticing a sort of... association. "Excessive religiousness is bad, and all Christians are excessive." And like you said, since the majority of LJ is scientifically proven to be feminist lesbians (I kid, I kid), and since Christianity is so prevalent and loud - I think it's a matter of, "these people here are against the things I believe in; they are Christian and say it's a religious sin; therefore all Christians must be like this."

Or... something.

I have noticed a trend, though - in the news, entertainment, whatever. Denouncing Judaism? Major no-no; people get called on for being anti-Semitic, have to make public apologies, etc. Bash Islam? You're immediately corrected because it's a good religion taken out of hand by a few extremists, etc.

Bash Christianity? More power to you. I'm of course being extremely general in saying this, but it does bug me. Part of it, I almost think, is political - especially in the US (The conservative right are Christian by and large, etc).

This may sound crass, but I think it all has to do with context, perception, and association. There are two major things associated with Judaism (please correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not actually Jewish): Jesus (ironically) and the Holocaust. Bash Judaism and you get called anti-Semitic. Who else was anti-Semitic? The Nazis. Who caused-the Holocaust. Which was-genocide. Therefore: against Jews=for genocide OR against Jews=like the Nazis. At least in people's minds, and nobody wants to be associated with that. Unless they're a retard.

I think the Islam bashing part is more economics than anything. You don't want to piss off the people who have your oil.

Edit: Oops, forgot this part. I think the reason it's become increasingly easier for people to bash Christianity without much consequence is because of television. Flip channels on any given day of the week and you'll probably find a televangelist somewhere preaching hellfire and brimstone. People are used to discounting television programs as good entertainment and works of fiction, except for maybe the news. It puts Christianity out there as a topic of conversation on par with what happened on your favorite soap opera or reality show. People have no trouble bashing it because they don't really view it as real, as something that holds great importance to real people, as a life changing event. I've never flipped channels and come across a sermon at a synagogue or mosque. Maybe I just don't catch those channels.

Edited 2008-01-01 08:14 (UTC)

I agree with you! No one wants to bring the nazis into the argument - it's "poor taste." But at the same time it seems somewhat silly to me; don't say bad things about this religion or that religion -- it's crass, insensitive, ignorant. Except for Christianity - that's okay! They're close minded and have a long history of hating people who aren't Christian - just look at the Crusades!

I feel dread at starting a sentence in this way, but, "After 9/11," there was a rash of anti-Muslim feeling. And it was retarded, and immediately people stepped in to basically point out that fact - because not every Islamic person, obviously, is a terrorist - not every German is a nazi, to indirectly quote another comment a few pages back.

But then there's also the sentiment - albeit a much quieter one - that every Christian is a close-minded fool. It's obviously on a lesser scale - no one is accusing them of genocide - and probably because it's more subtle, it's easier to get away with.

I think the reason it's become increasingly easier for people to bash Christianity without much consequence is because of television.

I think you're exactly right! I think it's also... Christianity is so prevalent, too, that it becomes easier to spot the extremists and fanatics. Percentage-wise in the US at least, there aren't nearly as many people of any other religion - and television loves that sort of thing, crazy loud people.

I think this may be the weirdest comparison I've ever had the privilege of making, but Christianity is the Walmart of religion. It's so huge and out there that it's the largest target by default.

I guess the main detractor of Christianity is, not that they're all close-minded fools, but that the loudest ones are(like you said, crazy loud people); and that leads into a whole other argument on hypocrisy. The smart, sensible Christians that actually *gasp* follow the tenets of their faith are too busy doing God's work to bother boisterously making fools of themselves in public. A true Christian generally won't have to tell you that he is one; you'll see it by his actions. At least, that's what they told me when I still went to church.

I think this may be the weirdest comparison I've ever had the privilege of making, but Christianity is the Walmart of religion. It's so huge and out there that it's the largest target by default.

But, if it's the biggest target, wouldn't it make it Target?

I kid, I kid. I've been reading all the responses on the threadlet here, and it's been interesting, and I generally agree with the conversation going on here. I think that the western world, particularly the US has had a well established "cultural Christianity." It doesn't always synch up with "true Christianity" (which, in my opinion on the entire history of the world, has rarely been popular). Nevermind that "Christians" are constantly arguing about what constitutes "true Christianity" - think about it. What did we just go through, the holiday where everybody gets presents?

It seems perfectly acceptable for people to talk about the Baby Jesus right around then, and people's Nativity yard displays are not deemed offensive. (I won't get into inflatable Santa Claus on a motorcycle....)

Then it's just back to "Ew, Christianity. Keep it in the closet!" the rest of the year.

I think perhaps it's "okay" to bash Christians because it is seen as the "religion of the establisment" (regardless of the actual truth of that). Other religions? They are minority, they are exotic. And yes, large numbers of people belonging to them fuel our SUVs. (Though I don wonder if the OP of the secret had been Muslim, if people on the thread would have screamed "terrorist" at him/her).

I honestly don't think people credit (historical) Christianity enough for Western open-mindedness. I was watching programs the other day about ancient Rome and the ancient world and, when Christianity hit it brought all kinds of radical ideas about equality, about masters and slaves being equal, and yes, women being the spiritual equals of men. (I was always taught that the "submit to your husband thing" went along with "husbands love your wives" as in - an EQUAL submission out of love, and of course, there's the verse about there being "no slave or free, no male or female...")

I think, because "cultural Christianity" has become the "establisment" and tied up with those loud politically-ambitious people, most people have forgotten what true Christianity is about, and the equity and tolerance inherent in the religion.

Though, I do come from a biased view, being a Christian myself, so I understand if people want to disregard everything I've just said.

I am not picking any fights, but...

It seems in today's society, there is a movement of nice, generally unobtrusive Christians like yourself to specify that despite the crazy zealots of both old and modern day, your religion and its teachings are ultimately one of tolerance and love.

I must ask you: How do you reconcile that with the rather violent lessons of the Old Testament? From my understanding, all of God's word is divine law. I also understand that according to the New Testament, God does indeed forgive sins as long as one follows a life of Christ---and by extension divine law. Does one simply exclude the instructions to burn down neighbor villages with heathen presence? How does that work?

Don't misunderstand me; I think the peaceful, mostly keep-it-to-yourself Christian movement is an excellent one, but I still have to ask.

Re: 16

shadsie.livejournal.com - 2008-01-01 21:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 16

kinneas.livejournal.com - 2008-01-01 22:15 (UTC) - Expand

~~Target-*snerk*~~

Well, I did my best to follow Christianity for a while before trying to seek my own path, and I just think it leads to more comprehensive discussions on the theology and actuality of it. Any good debater has heard the phrase "Know your material/topic". I think if someone is unfamiliar with a subject then they have no business trying to say whether it is good or bad. The fact that you are a Christian yourself, having a rational discussion about Christianity, actually makes me more inclined to listen to you.

You did bring up a very good point that had slipped my mind when writing my response above. "Cultural Christianity" and "establishment" indeed. I remember watching some program, I can't remember what it was, sadly; a child was asked if they were Christian, and their response was "I'm American". Even if Christianity is the prevalent religion of the U.S., it would be a sad state of affairs if Americans were all to claim Christianity by 'default', and be entirely unaware of what they are claiming affiliation with.

Actually, that brings me back to your earlier point about 'historical' Christianity. I think you're absolutely right, but that is because I am familiar with the source material. The people who bash Christianity as a national past-time just pick and choose which scriptures to quote based on which ones will make them seem right, and disregard the ones that would prove them wrong.

I think the cornerstone of the problem is that the loudest ones claiming to be Christian don't actually follow their faith, and of course this will give the people who actually do a bad name.

Re: 16

shadsie.livejournal.com - 2008-01-01 21:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 16

transephera.livejournal.com - 2008-01-01 21:54 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 16

shadsie.livejournal.com - 2008-01-01 21:58 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 16

transephera.livejournal.com - 2008-01-01 22:52 (UTC) - Expand

You make fantastic observational and sociological statements, seriously.

Reading this was a delight.

Why thank you ^__^ I try my best.

When I bother to read the threads, your name usually catches my attention because it seems you always have something interesting to say, but I'm kind of new to the comm so I wasn't really comfortable butting in ^^;;

And thank you!

Gad;jfdskfjd, feel free to butt in all you want! I admire more than anything the ability to analyze and put in concise and coherent terms truly insightful observations.

*blush* ^_^

oh great. now shadsie AND pretensioustfu are here, bringing their moralizing tl;dr.

the neighborhood just took a turn down.

Hidy there, troll.

Not to worry. I've not actually joined this community. I have no secrets and I'm only browsing here for a lark. I'll be gone soon enough.

"Moralizing" - helping someone out by trying to give them a little friendly writing advice so they'll be better able to write things that won't get them flamed? That is "moralizing?" If so, maybe you ought to bother a few others on this thread, too, who tried to do the same thing.

I was merely sharing how I handle religion and writing fanfiction. I thought it would *help* someone.

Perhaps I should make you happy by ceasing to breathe, hmmm?

Cry moar.

Wow, that's odd. Because when I was reading the thread I didn't detect any moralizing, and I usually have pretty good radar for that sort of thing. Wank much?

Thank you, but don't worry about it too much. I'm afraid I've gained a following of people in fandom circles who just don't like me. This kind of thing is just going to happen. People are under the impression that with me, it's easy to start wank (because, in the past, it has been) and they'll try to just for kicks. If they reply again, I'll just start talking about waffles or something. I've decided that stuff like this is just too stupid to really bother me anymore.

Mmmm, w♥ffles! I like mine with chocolate syrup XD

~~I need a waffle icon T_T~~

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