[ SECRET POST #2950 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2950 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 065 secrets from Secret Submission Post #422.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

The best answer I can come up with is that women, from a very early age, are shown the male perspective far more than men get a woman's perspective.

For example, I think you'll find that the average woman on the street knows that men watch porn and that a lot of men like lesbian porn in particular.

But few men (comparatively) seem to realize that things like kink memes exist or that women like slash (the number of men on imgur.com, for instance, that are SHOCKED when I mention that lots of women think man-on-man sex is hot is staggering).

Junot Diaz, for example, once said that most women can write a pretty decent male character. While a lot of men struggle to write a passable female character.

I do think society is changing and that's why it's frustrating for a lot of men to have these discussions, but I do think that, historically, the view of men as "the default" has given women much greater insight into the life of the average man than men have ever had of women.

Hope that makes some sense.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for your answer.

The problem that I have with this argument is that, by this logic, there is some amount of time of paying attention to women etc where a man could have the ability to comment authoritatively on these kinds of things. And that doesn't seem like an argument that's either valid, or likely to be accepted by many people.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

You just Sea-lioned someone? fucking low.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't understand what that means.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

Bullshit politeness so that you can be a bully without getting called on it.

In this case, asking a "reasonable" question with no intention of taking the answer to heart.

"I don't understand why women have a problem with XXX"
"*Is given answer*"
"No you're wrong"

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

I disagree with the answer, I'm not refusing to accept it. If you can convince me I'll accept it.

And I'm being polite because it's a conversation that I'm actually interested in having and I'd rather not see it get derailed into ideological SJW / anti-SJW fuckery. Even though the chances of that happening approach 1 in a million.

If you think that things would be better served by me pretending I think things that I don't think, or calling someone a fuckhead, I guess all I can say is that I don't see your logic there. But I guess that's sea-lioning too.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

"But I guess that's sea-lioning too"

You are correct. That whole comment was so sea-lion, I can actually smell the fish.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

da

I'm laughing at you so much right now.

A+, SJWs never disappoint! Polite disagreement is now offensive! No one will beleive you're genuinely disagreeing, unless you throw a couple of fucks and call ayrt a shitlord!

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

*new SJW tactic bingo card buzzword detected*

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

It means to engage in mature debate.

There was a good Wondermark strip about how a faux-reasonable tone can be used to be really obnoxious, and some kids have adopted it because it lets them criticize reasonableness as abusive.

I was literally about to post that strip!

[insanenoodlyguy]

But you explained it so beautifully I'll post it as a response to you

The strip in question (and not what you were doing at all politely disagreeing anon)

Re: I was literally about to post that strip!

[(Anonymous)]

DA

So OP posted their own thread, offended anon came into OP's thread, then offended anon accused OP of sea-lioning when offended anon is the one who is posting in OP's thread?

Is it just me or is the whole thing the opposite way around? Why post in someone else's thread and keep replying then accuse them of following you? Wtf?

Re: I was literally about to post that strip!

[(Anonymous)]

Sea-lioning is less about the following, and more about the obnoxious veil of civility the uncivilised use to add weight to their arguments.

Re: I was literally about to post that strip!

[(Anonymous)]

I apologize if you find my posts obnoxious! Is there anything I could do to make them less so?

Re: I was literally about to post that strip!

[(Anonymous)]

I kind of agree with the sea lion in this comic. It was only trying to engage in a polite discussion with a bunch of assholes who made a hurtful, sweeping statement about its race and then proceeded to ignore it as it attempted to defend itself (as all racists tend to do, when called out on their racism). It even decided to come back at a later time, when it noticed they're busy.

Re: I was literally about to post that strip!

[(Anonymous)]

The major thing the sea lion did wrong was follow them into the house and intrude in their private spaces, which is stalking and/or harassment. Talking to them at a restaurant, in public, after being told to go away once, doesn't count - if people actually went away after being told to go away once, my internet experience would be so much better, lol.

That's why I interpreted that comic as about stalking and/or harassing, and not the tone of voice which was totally reasonable to me. Of course stalking and/or harassing is wrong, regardless of the tone you take. But the tone is irrelevant when offended anon is the one following OP and posting in their thread and it can't be called stalking and/or harassing in any way

Re: I was literally about to post that strip!

[(Anonymous)]

tbh I think it's just a joke about people acting like herbs on the Internet

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[insanenoodlyguy]

You had a great run, but now you over-reached. I'm dissapointed.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think it would be accepted because it still wouldn't be the same in a lot of ways. Such a man would have to deliberately seek out women's experiences whereas for a lot of women, it's basically a "submersion" into men's world that we don't get to choose.

I guess the best example would be that if you're looking for female discussion on the internet, as a man, you'd have to seek out places that are known to be female-dominated (such as fan fiction).

But if you go almost anywhere on the internet, such as a generic news site or something, the assumption made by posters is still that you're a male. That's been my experience, at least, that everyone will default to thinking you're male.

So while you can gain insight into a woman's perspective by observing their spaces, I think it's very different than trying to navigate a female-dominated world.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

That's a very interesting point, and I definitely agree that there is an imbalance in those terms, and that the broader world at large is constructed around male dominance.

I'm still not sure whether it goes to the heart of the argument, though. Because it feels like the argument on the side of women - at least in my experience - is not about statistical averages; it's about something intrinsic to the genders.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't say it's intrinsic to the genders so much as founded upon historical inequality. We're moving away from it and I think as men get increasing exposure to women's stories they're going to be frustrated when it's assumed they know nothing about it, which is understandable. But given that we're still a good bit away from 50:50, it does mean that women still get a lot more exposure to men and men's experience than the reverse.

Although there's been lots of good progress. My 12 year old brother has had a lot more exposure to female perspectives than even I did at his age and, certainly, a TON more than my dad.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that's a logical and coherent position to take, and it does make sense. The only problem I have with it is that it just doesn't match my experience in terms of arguments that I've seen people make. And I don't think that's really something that you or anyone can really reconcile; it's probably just that I've had different experiences than you. It doesn't make either one of us wrong. All I can really do is agree with you, I guess.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

Ehhhh... I'd say that women are shown A male perspective, not THE male perspective. And that perspective is sharply limited and does not reflect the lived experiences of a majority of men.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[(Anonymous)]

Not all men, certainly.

But I do think men's stories dominate a good deal. And so women get a pretty decent cross-section of what male-ness means.

Women's stories are rarer and they're more stringent in some ways. I remember, for example, when Pixar was FINALLY going to have female protagonist be their main star in a film, I was happy. But then it turned into yet another "princess has to get married but doesn't want to -- with a twist!" story. And I felt really let down because that's been done SO. MANY. TIMES.

Compare that to the richness and diversity of male protagonists (even if they are non-human) and it's depressing.

Re: Fuck you Fandom secrets.

[diet_poison]

I think this is true to an extent. Anon who also replied has a point but so do you.

What we do see is a broad range of experiences that apply to (white) cis straight men, imo. And of course we do get fed a lot of bullshit about what a ~~real~~ man's experience is like, but men get fed that shit too and that exists on the female side as well.