fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #2958 ]

Man, celiac heaven!

I actually might be moving in with a couple folks who keep kosher and have Passover and such. I plan to pick their brains about kosher meat in the area, because I approve of the slaughtering methods and want to get in on that. (I can't be vegetarian, or I get sick, but I'm still under the belief that if I can't stand the idea of how that meat got on my plate, I shouldn't blithely go eating it.)

--Rogan

Oh wow, good luck with that! A word from me to you - be *super* careful about their dishes, because if you mix stuff up it can actually be a bit problem for them. Kudos for taking the time to learn about it, though :)
I'm actually glad to hear you say it, because one of the antisemitic claims often used is that the Kosher method is barbaric - which it actually *isn't*, it kills the animals extremely quickly. And ensuring the meat remains kosher does demand a bit better treatment of the animals, because blemishes render the meat unkosher.
I'm actually 99% vegetarian - I don't have any meat at home. Once every few months I'll go out with friends for meat, but that's it.

It's good that if you can't be vegetarian you're doing your best to be careful about your meat :)

Oh yes, that part I know! And it actually works well for me, because I have a tiny stock of my own dishes that I like to use, and I prefer to wash my dishes by hand because... well, there aren't enough of them for an electric washer to be efficient. I might even make sure I have my own little set of silverware, just so I don't actually contaminate one of theirs by mistake.

(It's kind of nice that for once, my ED weirdness is USEFUL to someone, rather than just being weird and uncomfortable.)

What? I mean, most antisemitic bull I see is incredibly stupid, but still, that's so... STUPID. Are most people AWARE of how a lot of animals are slaughtered? In my country, at least, it's pretty horrendous! It's how I became AWARE of kosher meat, because I had a lot of Jewish friends who were like, "hey, if that bothers you..." and otherwise, it's actually REALLY hard to find out how your meat was slaughtered here.

--Rogan

Wait, I just realized! If you live in Israel, you can tell me what the climate's like there as an insider! What's the weather and such like?

(I uh. Might be writing a fantasy series where the Roman Empire never came to be, the Second Temple never fell, and thus there was no following diaspora. I enjoy writing it and people like reading it, but I am highly unlikely to ever make it to any of the locations mentioned in it.)

--Rogan

I am very interested in this story! You must tell me more about it.

As for the climate, it depends on the area. Half of Israel is desert, the Negev desert, which is dry and hot during the day and dry and cold at night. However, it's not a dune desert, it's a rock-and-mountain desert. There are two big craters which were made by inland seas a few million years ago, but I don't think trade routes went through there in those days or anything.

If you go northward you reach the Judea-Benjamin area and Jerusalem. There it's rocky and mountainous (but no like massive Rocky Mountains types. they're mostly rounded), and the weather tends to be kind of temperate, and also dry. In the winter you can get snow, but it's rare. Usually around 1-10 degrees celsius in winter, and again, dry air. It dries out your skin. But it's a lot more comfortable in the summer, because it doesn't get that hot and the dryness keeps you from sweating like crazy.
To the east is the Jordan basin, where it can get *extremely* hot during the summer. It's the hottest place in Israel, I think they got to 50 degrees once.
To the west is the coastal area, where it's flatter and goes down to the sea. Hot and humid in the summer, temperate in the winter. On a clear day you can actually see the sea from Jerusalem.
Then if you go north you hit the Galilee. There's a swampy basin there, so more humid, and kind of hot. But very cold in the winter, especially up in Safed (Tsfat) which is in the mountains. I haven't lived long periods in the north of Israel, though, so hard for me to be very specific.
There's the Carmel mountain, which is on the north-eastish of Israel (where Haifa is today). It's forested, though the plants are different than European forests. There's a lot more scrub. It's much cooler than the coast, but still pretty hot in the summer.
Then you have the Golan heights, an elevated, mountainous area that used to be volcanic. Lots of volcanic rock there, and many areas are kind of flat but dotted with mountains. The entire plateau looks down over the Galilee. Very yellow during the summer. Lots of natural springs.
Gets cold during the winter, and also will usually get snow, especially up on its northernmost tip, Mt. Hermon, the tallest mountain in Israel.

Nowhere in Israel is *too* cold, though, nothing in the serious minuses. Olive trees absolutely *everywhere*, and lots of cacti (but not the sort you see in the US haha). Lots of carob trees, too, which used to be eaten widely.
Hope this helps! If you have more questions, feel free to ask :) (or message, if you want)

Now seriously, tell me more about this story. What's it about? Have you posted any of it?

Oh my god this is so helpful, THANK YOU. I may indeed pick your brain again, especially since you probably speak Hebrew, right? (Unless your family immigrated there speaking something else.) Obviously Modern Hebrew != the alternate-history version my characters would be using, but it would be handy if I had someone around who could just tell me if it's painfully wrong.

As for the story itself, it basically came about because hubby demanded a gay fairy tale, and I love golems. The Golem of Prague is my favorite folk tale and fantastical being ever. However, no fairy tale is complete without a princess and a castle, which meant I needed to make a story universe where Jews were medieval royalty.

I started reading up on history, decided to make a point of divergence with the Roman Empire, and have the Maccabbeans achieve more success than they actually did, meaning that they took over where the Romans failed. They used Judaism and Hebrew to unify their empire, and they're still pretty much the only game in town as far as monotheism goes. (Because Jesus, if he did exist, was just another radical messianist of which there were MANY during the time period, and who knows what Allah did.) The Second Temple never fell, so you still got the high priest, the sacrifices, all that. (Though, due to being so far away, a lot of people on the fringe of the empire started using the rabbinical form more, it being more transportable.)

There are two main things with this story universe. There's the Princess and Her Monster, which is a giant slab of a novel that has been stuck in stasis for a few years, and which I might break down into serial form. It focuses on witch-brat Princess Judith, her stone guardsman Gate Monster, and a pain-in-the-ass knight hellbent on rescuing her. It takes place a century or two after the empire's fall, in South Tyrol Italy in the 1200s.

There's also the Family of Fools, which takes place in Jerusalem and follows a family of ordinary standing going about their lives. Obviously, their lifestyle in the cosmpolitan city is very different from those in The Princess And Her Monster, who live in the ass-end of nowhere on what used to be the fringe of the old empire.

You can read what I've got up here! (Plus see the story in that universe that's up for sale. And today is the last day for bonus stuff involving the writeathon, so if you bought it today, there'd be a bonus 1000 words posted for free!) There's also some painfully old art.

Well, on the language angle you're in luck - not only am I fluent in Hebrew, but I've had a pretty reasonable education in Jewish writings. I can parse almost anything, starting from the Bible and up through the Middle Ages, so I have some concept of the changes Hebrew underwent :)

(Oh, forgot to mention - it never rains in the summer here. Never ever)

As for the story... I admit I have some things I wonder at. If Judaism really became that popular, I can't help but wonder if rather than have everybody convert, they would simply have large groups of the population following the seven Noahide laws - since Judaism isn't missionary anyway, and non-Jews have no responsibility to convert, and are quite capable of fulfilling all of Judaism's demands on non-Jews in a much simpler way.

To be honest I also have a bit of an issue with the witch princess thing... I mean you know that Judaism isn't much for witchy arts, right? Even if she was accepted as some kind of prophet/wise woman/etc. I doubt she would want to have a stigma of witchcraft attached to her because that's a pretty big no-no.

The golems walked into a bit of a pet peeve of mine too, actually, because I really dislike the level to which golems are often romanticized in fantasy while ignoring all the massive Kabbalistic elements. I mean they weren't something that just anybody could create. (actually most people don't know that there were plenty more simulacra created before the famous Golem of Prague...).
I don't want to get on your case for every little thing, though.
(I admit that the thought of a doctor never working on Shabbat horrifies me. That's /terrible/. They should be excommunicated.)

Israel sounds, in some ways, like Texas, as far as weather goes. (Rain? What is this 'rain' you speak of? OH GOD WATER FROM THE SKY RUN FOR YOUR LIVES)

No, it's cool that you're wondering! I'm a dumbass goy, trying NOT to fuck up, and invariably, I AM going to fuck up. I am just SO RELIEVED to have someone knowledgeable who can call me on my shit! Most of the Jewish folks I know don't keep kosher or anything, so are a bit limite.

I hadn't thought of using the Noahide laws! Obviously, all this is ANCIENT history even by the time the story takes place; I was imagining that there'd be a ton of different sects of Judaism, some so far afield that they'd be unrecognizable to us... but I don't know enough about them to have dared take that on. The Empire's long gone, but I was imagining that while forcible conversion MAY have been a thing very early on (ala the Idumeans) and then it mostly toned down to Hebrew being the language of choice, and a lot of people converting because they'd get extra goodies from the empirical government. All this is longass gone though.

And yes, I am VERY well aware that Judaism isn't much for witchery. It's why the princess is barred from the throne, pretty much loathed by everyone, and almost causes a civil war for existing. She is NOT in a good social position. It's actually a major point of the plot as to why her kingdom's abandoned and she's stuck in a cursed castle of death; NOBODY wants her around. (Unfortunately, her powers are inborn and not the kind she can suppress. Otherwise, she would've.)

As for the golems, they are intended to be HUGELY rare, at least in the main story verse; it's another plot point that most people in that area of the world never see a golem in their lives, and only know of them by reputation. Only very carefully, specifically trained people can make them, and Gate Monster isn't one at all. (Which is uncovered the moment someone with any education on the matter gets a hold of him.)

Jerusalem, by the point of the Family of Fools, is considered extremely bourgeois and tacky for a LOT of reasons. You have a lot of people twisting the laws to suit their own selfish purposes, backlash against it, and there's actually a lot of social upheaval going on behind the scenes.

One of the biggest sticking points is golems being used for such common purposes as an ostentatious display. It's EXTREMELY gross, and there is tons of in-fighting and such over it. I just haven't gotten to write it because... well, I only have 1000 words, and I write specifically to people's requests. I should probably make some meta posts on it because yeah, no, a lot of folks are REALLY MAD about golems wandering around their holy city. Mara, Miriam, and Mordekhai are among the quiet folks who try to keep their heads down and not get involved.

And yeah, I'm aware of other simulacra besides the famous Prague one. There was that poet guy who got excommunicated because folks claimed he had a wooden female golem doing housework for him, the messenger who passed for human till asked to speak, that calf made in the desert... it's actually really cool to me, the variety! Just unfortunately kind of difficult for me to dig stuff up on.

(As you can see, my knowledge of Judaism and such is PAINFULLY scattershot. I actually have avoided posting more of Princess and Monster just because I don't want to be a total git.)

--Rogan

I think I may need to understand the basics of your world better. If the empire is gone, then what *is* there? Was there a brief Judean empire and then they pulled back closer to Abraham's borders?
Also this would hardly be "ancient history" in Jewish terms - our traditional history goes back 4000 years. You'd have extremely important developments for Judaism probably happening anyway, even with the Temple still around. For example, there probably would still have been a movement to write down the Oral Law, only perhaps motivated by disseminating to far-flung locations rather than the destruction of the Temple. You'd probably still have the conflict between the Zaddokites and the Pharisees. There would be big questions regarding the whole "empire" business, because chances are that many areas of it wouldn't have been actually considered part of Israel, but more semi-autonomous subservient nations, which is why I mentioned the Noahide thing. Because there are a lot of laws pertaining the land of Israel specifically, so there would probably be arguments whether or not that type of conquest actually sanctifies the land as part of Israel or not. I'd assume not, tbh.
With the Temple still intact there are certain things that would need workarounds - perhaps for some of the personal sacrifices the communities would send money in bulk once a year or something? But either way that doesn't solve the Passover problem...

I think I need to understand better what her powers are at all, and how common it is to even *have* powers among the population there as a rule.

I would really wonder how "tacky" Jerusalem can be considered as long as it's still the Holy City and contains the Temple. I mean that... does not work for me emotionally at all. Upheaval is one thing, and there has always been a lot of it around for us, but. Tacky?

I will be very frank, I am really not sure about the golem thing. It's not about them running around the Holy City, it's about why are there enough golems to put in stables. Seriously, there should not be enough people dealing with that stuff, especially not in such a public way.
I mean really it's not supposed to be so much about specific training as being very learned...

Hey. I'm saving these comments because I DO want to get back to you on this, just unfortunately a bunch of other things are going on at the same time. BUT I WILL GET BACK TO YOU ON THIS, I promise.

--Rogan

No problem :) I know life is a thing that happens! Take your time.

I should add though, it really is a cool idea. You know, according to the Talmud there was actually a time when the Romans were considering making Judaism the official religion - and then Christianity came along and it was much easier, so they went with that.
For the workings of Jewish communities you could probably look up what was done in ancient communities that existed from the time of the first Temple, such as in Babylon, Alexandria, Rome, etc.
I've actually been toying with a Jewish alternate-history Middle Ages idea myself, though I went in a totally different direction with it.

Really? That's fascinating! I actually have been meaning to read up on the Torah and Talmud, it's just that there are SO MANY ways to take it on that I kinda get overwhelmed and don't know where to start. Any advice?

That's a great idea about the ancient communities. Just to my frustration, I have a really hard time finding books on that here, and I can't really afford to buy a ton of books sight unseen from the library. I can't even find decent books on CARTHAGE, never mind Judaism. I've found a TINY bit about the Alexandrian Jews, but only buried within other books on Hellenistic Egypt and Rome.

(I am kind of annoyed that I have to read so much about Rome when they're NOT IN THE DAMN HISTORY I'M WRITING. But all the history from the period seems to come from them.)

Seriously, where have you been for all these years! You're like, the exact set of knowledge I've been needing since 2010 when I started this damn project!

--Rogan

Everyman's Talmud, and perhaps a book called Introduction to the Talmud and Midrash.
The difficulty you're running into is that Jewish society is shaped by halachic rulings, and in those days they had a Sanhedrin to clarify things, and also a Beit Din. Many societal changes would be directly affected and influenced by the rulings and decisions made. The period you're in is going into the Middle Ages, and you'd have some really big-name rabbis running around by then - like Maimonides. Maimonides was a realist, but how would his rulings be affected if magery was still common in society? He wasn't big on Kabbalah, and he ruled demons out of existence (unlike the more Kabbalistic schools of the time). So how would that reality have affected him - or he reality? It's a big question. Overall Judaism is on a trend of embracing the world (and technology, btw!).
So these things would have had long-reaching impact on the way Jews lived their lives and ordered their communities.

I really don't understand how you're not finding books about Jewish history. There are thousands of them O_O you've read Josephus, I hope? I mean that's just the very top of the barrel. And the two books of Maccabees.

also I really don't think that in Judaism it would be *possible* to turn a person into a golem. That's not how golems are made at all... and the essence of humanity is free will and free choice, and is possibly one of the most important things in Judaism. And the essence of being a Jew is having the opportunity to follow G-d's commands. Having that taken from a person is monstrous.

Yup! Bingo!

Gate Monster isn't actually a golem. He gets MISTAKEN for one because so few people see him and none of them are educated on the matter. But he's not, and the moment someone with any decent education gets a hold of him, it's immediately made clear.

--Rogan

You know, a very serious question regarding him is whether or not he even counts as alive anymore. Because chances are he wouldn't (there are similar stories of people continuing living in 'unnatural' ways), and if he's not considered alive then it means that he no longer has to keep mitzvot, and he can no longer be part of a minyan, can no longer be called to read the Torah or even say a blessing. I can imagine that for a Jew who has been even some level of devout their entire life this would be torture. It's kind of similar to being excommunicated, but it's being disconnected from G-d. I mean it's essentially being told gently "honey, you really should be in the Next World".
Remember that Judaism is an exceedingly social tradition. It's part of a tribal mentality, and is meant to be kept in groups.

That's a really good question, honestly. I guess my response would be, "What are the criteria in the tradition for living?"

Like, he still can get killed, injured, and healed (though his healing process is slowed down; his body is knitting together rock, after all). He CAN eat or drink, if he wants to, but he doesn't need to (for plot reasons; by the end of the story, that may change) and his digestion is also slowed down. He still has body heat, a pulse, and breathes. Obviously he can walk, talk, emote, and feel pain.

So by most reasoning, I think he WOULD still count as alive?

--Rogan

I'd have to understand more about what happened to him and what her powers are in order to answer that.

Also, let me thank you for being so informative. This whole time, there's been a MASSIVE hole in my process for this work; I've had great critiques and such from a writer perspective, but I haven't known anyone devout enough who can really Jew check it. You are giving me the grilling I DESPERATELY need, and I really, really appreciate it.

--Rogan

I appreciate you being willing to actually take the time to try and get it right. The truth is, there are a lot of Jews who don't know our history particularly well, and while it's their right to choose however they do or do not want to live our traditions, none of that is helpful when trying to craft a story from a traditionally Jewish perspective of any sort.

:) I'm glad I can be helpful!

[ SECRET POST #2958 ]

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