[ SECRET POST #2977 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2977 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.


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03.


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04.


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05.
[Paul Darrow]


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06.
[Dragon Age: Inquisition]


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07.


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08.
(Bee and Puppycat)


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09.
[Joan Watson, Elementary]


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10.
(Marvel's Agents of Shield)


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11.
[One Piece]


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12.


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13.
[Noah Emmerich, The Americans]


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14.
[Teen Wolf]


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15. [ WARNING for rape ]



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16. [ WARNING for dubcon? ]










Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #425.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

16. [ WARNING for dubcon? ]
http://i57.tinypic.com/2zjknsp.jpg

[forgottenjester]

The whole scene was awkward because I don't think Data was mature enough to really emotionally get what he was doing and she was obviously unable to consent because her mind was all messed up by the virus. It was just meeeeeeeeeeeehhhhh all the way around.

[dancing_clown]

I know Data often got saddled as the naive character who doesn't quite get all the human customs and metaphors and whatnot -- and that does kind of give him a childlike wonder -- but this seems to be infantilizing him to a ridiculous degree, imo.

But yes. Very awkward scene.

op

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, this. Data is not a child.

[forgottenjester]

It's infantalizing to say someone it's ready for the emotional side of sex?

I... know people in their 20s who are like that. I don't think they're children.

[(Anonymous)]

This "secret" is basically cribbed wholesale from the "Mark Watches" review. Frankly, Data has consent issues too, since he doesn't really understand human emotions and human actions in Season 1. Data is pretty much like Wesley then, he's the world's smartest 11 year old in his innocence, so lets chalk it up to a weird space thing and move on. Yar and Data did.

Lets talk about Troi and Crusher both getting visited by rape ghosts instead.

op

[(Anonymous)]

Uh, I read that Mark Watches review and watched the video, and it all seemed very clear that Mark had definite opinions on whether consent could be given\. In the review, he came down on the side that neither could, but the video was very much "OH NO! DATA NEEDS TO LEARN ABOUT CONSENT! *FEMINIST ALLY RAGE*"

So yeah this secret was prompted by that but it's not "cribbed" from it at all.

[lunabee34]

My then 11 year old's reaction to watching that episode:

"A ghost who wants to touch her boobies? Really?"

[(Anonymous)]

oh, man, the rape ghosts! Especially the Crusher one seemed just so ridiculous to me. Why. Why is this an episode.

[cushlamochree]

I kinda feel like we can talk about issues with the way the show is written, without talking about issues with the characters doing anything wrong?

Or we can just write it off as season 1 TNG, which I'm comfortable with. Although that still leaves us with a ton of Troi / Crusher plots to deal with.

[(Anonymous)]

Apparently enthusiastic consent is insufficient...

[(Anonymous)]

Person who does not fully understand what sex is cannot consent to the enthusiastic, but alien virus driven, non-consent seduction either. Technically they both raped each other, but in different ways. Neither of them were capable of informed consent.

[(Anonymous)]

Data was equally space-drunk, so yeah, his consent was as impaired as hers.

I don't think we can reconcile "doesn't understand what sex is" with "programmed in multiple techniques", though.

[(Anonymous)]

"Enthusiastic consent" while under the effects of a drug-like toxin that destroys your inhibitions doesn't count. It's like how someone who is blackout drunk can't meaningfully consent.

Granted, Data doesn't really know about any of that (nor should he, at that point in the proceedings), so I'm not saying that what happened was necessarily "rape" (either from him to her, or from her to him), but it sure as hell wasn't consented to. Grey area, I suppose.

Transcript

[(Anonymous)]

Image: A blonde woman wearing dark blue/purple clothes

Text: Recent reaction to this episode made me realize I don't really understand consent issues as well as I thought. Because I don't really see any when she's throwing herself at him. I mean, yes. WE know that there's some alien virust going around, but from Data's perspective, she was enthusiastically initiating intimacy. - Star
Trek: TNG The Naked Now

Re: Transcript

[(Anonymous)]

The blonde woman is Tasha Yar played by Denise Crosby (granddaughter of Bing Crosby).

[anonymous4]

I'm not sure who 'they' think was raping whom in this scenario but, as I remember it, Yar was embarrassed afterwards but seemed to be taking responsibility for what happened, and Data was later shown to own a hologram of Yar because she was 'special' to him... Is it rape if neither side perceives him or herself to have been raped? Would it be in their interests to try to convince them that they had?

[(Anonymous)]

Well it is rape. But the grey area is how each person reacts. While the most common reaction is a feeling of violation and disgust, other reactions are documented. And those other reactions are no less valid, because demanding a person react in a specific way is just as bad as actually raping someone as it removes their agency. Someone who was raped, may not feel the commonly reported intense violation, and a few (mainly young men who saw their rape by women as some sort of fantasy-fulfilment and did not fully understand consent issues-although other young men feel just as violated as young women do) may even report enjoyment. There are also documented cases of victims not only forgiving their rapist, but actively working to be a positive influence in the rapist's life. People are allowed to have their own reaction, and to choose how best to deal with their situations. This would be especially applicable in the hypothetical situation in the secret, where Data and Yar are coworkers who were essentially drugged into sleeping together and eventually bonded over their shared ordeal.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's much more of a "drunken mistake" type of thing. If both are equally incapacitated, and neither is taking advantage of the other, it's not rape. Rape is defined as an attack, a way to make someone do something they don't want to do by taking advantage of a vulnerability -- whether that vulnerability is physical power imbalance, coercive leverage (threats, blackmail, etc), or mental togetherness (age, intoxication, awareness of relevant information).

If someone does something they don't want to do because they're intoxicated, and that something happens to involve you, AND you are either equally intoxicated or don't have the knowledge/understanding to put a stop to things, it's not rape. It's mutually doing something stupid while drunk/misinformed.

[anonymous4]

Yes, that's pretty much my thinking, too...

And in Yar and Data's case it wasn't even particularly stupid, because there were no negative consequences (that we were shown). It was just, basically, a one night stand.

[othellia]

I think I'd have to agree with this too. Like there's a reason that a 16yr/24yr couple having sex is rape, but a 16yr/16yr isn't.

And it blurs the definition of rape when someone says "well they both raped each other" because then it's like, okay, you're still considering it rape and rape is still a crime? But this should be a non-prosecuted form of rape? IDK, much easier to say "grey area" than try to stick a black/white label on it.

[(Anonymous)]

This sort of thing is basically what the label "dubcon" was originally designed for. Neither one was legally able to give consent, but neither one was coercing the other.

[lunabee34]

I'm really uncomfortable with the idea that Data wasn't capable of deciding whether to have sex (obviously Tasha is impaired and that's a different issue). He was able to decide whether to risk his life for his comrades. He certainly had access to gigabytes of data (ha) on sex in multiple cultures. He grows over the course of the show and I think any sex he had in season ten would probably mean something different to him than the sex he had in season one, but that seems normal to me?

[(Anonymous)]

If one party is unable to give informed, enthusiastic consent - then an appropriate warning/label applies for the viewer, whether the other party in canon is aware of it or not.

It depends in part what people are labelling it...? If they're using "dubcon" or just mentioning "consent issues", then yeah, that's appropriate. If they're calling it "rape", well, maybe not so much. (That said, it's not something I'd want to get into an internet fight over. There are some people who have strong feelings about seeing the term "rape" being 'diluted', for good reason, and don't like to use anything 'weaker' being used - even if it's being applied to the sort of situation you can only find in fiction.)

IMO the fact that neither party is aware of the consent issues (due to an alien virus, or Sex Pollen [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Sex_Pollen] or whatever) is what makes the appropriate label dub-con rather than non-con or rape. Obviously non-con would mean one party is clearly indicating that they do not consent to the sex act that happens; while rape indicates that one party is aware that the other is either a) unwilling or b) unable to meaningfully consent, but goes ahead regardless.

(Disclaimer: I'm not personally familiar with the episode in question nor the 'recent reaction' to it, I'm just basing this on the comments above. So maybe I've overlooked something.)

[(Anonymous)]

OT somewhat but I always hated her "new look" in that scene. Denise Crosby is a beautiful woman, why put her in some rinky dink outfit where she looks like she's trying out for I Dream of Jeannie and grease her hair up with a worm curl like Squiggy?!