[ SECRET POST #2993 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2993 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 123 secrets from Secret Submission Post #428.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 - pretty sure these are all the same spammer anon trying to win the non-existent "weirdest fandomsecret/sex fantasy" award. There are more I missed, and some that went up yesterday. If one of these is not the same anon, please PM me ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[feotakahari]

If we're going to play the "terrible people use this label!" game, then egalitarian is not a good choice. It's somewhere between a meme and a running gag that if you're talking to someone who wants to be called an egalitarian, you should run away screaming.

(As for a label that ISN'T associated with horrible shit, I'm drawing a blank. "Humanist" is actually worse than "egalitarian." I guess just go without the label?)

[(Anonymous)]

Between feminist, MRA, or egalitarian; I am going to assume the egalitarian is the least shitty person. *shrug*

[(Anonymous)]

Wrong. Most self-proclaimed egalitarians are in fact straight up old-fashioned misogynists of the "you have the vote, what more do you want?" stripe.

[(Anonymous)]

And many self-proclaimed feminists are men-hating whiny assholes who want all the privilege but want to do none of the work. But somehow, they don't seem to count in your logic.

[(Anonymous)]

What work? Seriously, what hardships do men (or white people or any privileged group really) have to bear? I'd really like to know.

[(Anonymous)]

You know, I could go and copy the lists upon lists from several sources (which you could also find yourself with a simple google search if it really interested you) but something tells me that no matter what someone says, you would find some reason to dismiss the points they raise.

[(Anonymous)]

What would I even google for? Seriously?

Also I obviously know that people can have hard lives despite their privileges, but that is not the point. I comment I replied to, stated that there are certain things men have to endure in exchange for having privilege and that (most) feminists are not willing to endure those things, which doesn't make sense at all.

First of all, as I stated above, can not think of a single thing that affects men in general (i.e. isn't personalized tragedy), that has to do with sexism, that women are refusing to bear. Secondly it doesn't make sense because feminism isn't some movement of women trying to become oppressors over men. The idea is to gain equality. Which is by the way something men would profit from.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I'm going to assume you're arguing in good faith here, so if it turns out you're trolling, then congratulations, you got me. But I think you genuinely do want all people treated decently, and you're interested in using the best available sociological tools to analyze and solve the relevant problems.

First off, I completely agree with you that equality would benefit men as well as women. The thing is, if gendered oppression and injustice were entirely unidirectional, men as oppressors and women as oppressed, then that wouldn't be true. You can't just say "The patriarchy hurts men too" and then act as though men aren't hurt by the patriarchy.

Men die younger than women for a lot of preventable reasons, mostly violence and suicide. To be male is to be an acceptable target for violence in our society, and that is not okay, I think we can agree. Men are at much higher risk of being the victim of violent crime, and VASTLY higher risk of suicide. Does this come from societal stereotypes and teaching about machismo and proper male roles? Partly, yes. That means what we have here is a societal sexism problem that is STRAIGHT-UP KILLING PEOPLE, so let's not pretend it doesn't exist because the dead people have dicks.

The gender gap in higher education favors women and continues to widen. Does that relate to media stereotypes about men being stupid, horny brutes? Maybe; certainly that's something we should be able to have a conversation about, not just dismiss it as irrelevant.

Rape of men remains a punchline in both media and in general civic discourse, and while some feminists have quite rightly decried that tendency as evil, you still can't bring up the issue in feminist spaces without some folks saying "Men being raped is incredibly rare and I refuse to care about it", in flat defiance of the facts. That gives a lot of people the impression that feminists aren't serious about the equality thing.

Right here in this community a few days ago, someone mentioned that men can suffer from very nasty body-image issues fed by media images, and at least one person was angrily insisting that nothing would ever make her care about teh poor menz and their fee-fees. This is not a made-up problem.

I don't think there's any extra shit that I've had to deal with because I'm white, that I wouldn't have had to deal with if I were, say, Latino. That axis of oppression really is unidirectional. But is there shit I've had to deal with because I'm male that I wouldn't have had to deal with if I were female? Yes. There is. I'm not some asshole MRA claiming that women have all the advantages and men are brutally oppressed; I understand that there'd be reams of shit I'd have to deal with if I were a woman that I currently don't have to. Which doesn't make all the existing microaggressions and stereotypes and pain somehow GO AWAY, any more than "Women have it worse in Saudi Arabia" somehow invalidates Western women's problems.

So yeah, feminism is the right tool to pursue gender equality, which is good because we're all trapped in a fucked-up gender system that hurts everyone. But it doesn't help when folks want to act like half the problem doesn't exist, or is worthy only of sneering contempt.

[(Anonymous)]

your mistake is in thinking that radfem anon is a real person

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry, not a troll. (Also I believe most trolls are in fact people.)

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, first off, I am not a troll, so thanks for the response and the rational explanations.

I think my second comment was really badly worded. I am aware of how the partriarchy damages men and I do think that those things you mentioned are worth fighting against. I think most of the disadvataged men have, are still directly linked to misogyny though. So I guess I see the issue as more unidirectional than you. But that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't try to fight these problems.

The thing is, though, that most of these problems for men exist, because of gendersterotypes (e.g. men getting raped is a joke, because ~real men are strong). My problem with the first comment wasn't that it mentioned how men are negatively affected by the partriarchy (they are and we should work against it). My issue is that it stated most feminists "want all the privilege but want to do none of the work". Which implies there is some work men do, that makes them inherently deserving of that privilege and also ignored the fact that the people that are actually trying to abolish genderroles (and therefore most of the problems men face because of sexism) are (mostly) feminists.

My comments were badly worded though and for that I apologize. I am just really tired of the idea that women somehow have to earn equality, which is total bullshit. Anyway, thanks for you reply.

[(Anonymous)]

Custody and alimony biases in court, how women get off easier on crimes that men would go to life for (look up what happens whenever a woman has sex with a young boy versus a guy doing it), how in France it's illegal for a father to attempt to find out the paternity of his son, etc. Look it up.

[(Anonymous)]

Yep, all things that exist. All things, that are bad. But none of them are "work" women need to do in order to be deserving of equality. Instead things that most feminist are activly against (because those things are caused my gender-stereotyping).

[(Anonymous)]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html

please please please please PLEASE stop spreading the "common knowledge" myth that women routinely triumph over men in custody disputes when the reality is that most "fathers" don't even bother showing up to court, or attempting to see their own children, which is the bulk of what causes the statistical disparity

[(Anonymous)]

Custody disputes are not the cases where there's no disagreement.

If you dig deeper and follow the links cited in the page, you'll find the following:
http://divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm

Which includes the following numbers for when parents go to evaluation or trial:

Sole possession to mother 44%
Sole possession to father 11%
Joint possession 40%
Other 5%

This seems to support the notion that mothers are more likely to triumph over men in court than the other way round when it comes to custody.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT. Funny, all the feminists I know are anything but. Strawman ahoy.

[(Anonymous)]

This is something that pisses me off about you people: You keep making strawmen arguments all the fucking time but as soon as someone twists the strawman to apply to your personal group of choice, you immediately start whining "Strawman! Strawman!". Why is it always a strawman when you feel insulted but ~oh so true~ when it's about a group you don't like? Your double standards are pathetic and disqualify you from any further discussion.

[(Anonymous)]

Who cares if they hate men? How does that hurt anyone? It doesn't because they hold no power over (white, able-bodied, cisgendered) men.