Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2015-04-07 06:34 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2015-04-07 06:34 pm
[ SECRET POST #3016 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3016 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 084 secrets from Secret Submission Post #431.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 08:50 am (UTC)(link)On the other hand, you can ship Spock with your fave (Kirk) even though he had tried to strangle him and their ~friendship is badly developed and makes no sense in context. Not OOC, at all. Just a logical ship for a vulcan, right?
Don't 'I'm not a spirk fan' me because your style and arguments are always the same all over fandom secrects (you were the one who lost their shit over a secret that criticized your ship)
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 11:28 am (UTC)(link)Like if you want to write Spock/Uhura where they met as children? Or Spock/Uhura where Spock grew up on Earth? Or Spock/Uhura where they didn't get together until after Vulcan's destruction?
Go for it! That can and does work because then, at least, you're providing an explanation for why Spock got over his emotional hangups.
But, more to the point, fandom does not have to be canon consistent. A lot of fic is purely id fic and twists the character's personalities or makes them cracky for fun. And that's fine. Because it's not canon.
But CANON is held to a different standard. CANON still has to be consistent with what's been established and Spock/Uhura (as written in the movies) OBJECTIVELY is not consistent with what's been established about Spock's character..
If we're talking about Kirk/Spock, there's issues as well, but they're more minor. Why? Because almost ALL of Kirk and Spock's interactions take place AFTER the destruction of Vulcan -- which acts as a major point of variance between the two.
Yes, Spock attacked Kirk after his mother was killed and his planet was lost. But it's not like this is unprecedented. In TOS when dosed with spores, Kirk started antagonizing Spock's parentage when he realized anger could dispel the effects of the spores and Spock attacked him there. Now, he had an excuse that he was under the influence of drugs but TOS at least gives us evidence that attacking Spock's family (verbally) will make him violent. And, once again, the destruction of Vulcan is an unprecedented point of divergence that you can use to explain differences in Spock's behavior. He experienced something DRASTICALLY different from TOS Spock and thus he might behave DRASTICALLY different as a result.
Regardless, the nice thing about fan fiction is that you can FIX this stuff. Kirk and Spock aren't really friends after the 2009 film, right? Well, you as a writer can EXPAND on what's been established -- show them BECOMING friends by going on missions, hanging out, getting to know one another.
The problem with CANON Spuhura is that it contradicts Spock's personality as written. There's nothing prevent fan writers from crafting great Spuhura fan fiction in the same way Spirk shippers can craft great Spirk fan fiction.
But they can't fix the canon relationship.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:01 pm (UTC)(link)"OBJECTIVELY"
Lmao
"But, more to the point, fandom does not have to be canon consistent"
This is the lamest excuse I ever read you slash fans use to cover up yous ass and justify your blatant hypocrisy with the canon het fans.
In this case especially, don't even try. You guys have no idea what it means writing Spock in character and that's not just in the fanfictions. You all do try to pass your interpretations as canon all the time.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:13 pm (UTC)(link)What is hypocritical about it? Guess what? Not all fanfics are the same. Some, for example, have Kirk and Spock meeting after Tarsus and then falling in love after that. It's a point of divergence.
You seem to be under the impression that most Kirk/Spock fan fiction just takes Uhura our and sticks Kirk into her place. Some does, yeah. And they're OVERWHELMINGLY bad. But a lot of it DOESN'T and instead there's unique scenarios where they get together. Or writers try to make sense of the lunacy that is the reboot films.
And like I said -- Spuhura fans are free to do this too. Just because the canon relationship is poorly written does not prevent Spuhura fans from writing GREAT fan fictions. The same as Spirk fans.
I also see that you haven't even tried to answer my points. You've used personal attack after personal attack after personal attack. Guess what? Even if I was Hitler and I shipped Spock/Sarek, that wouldn't make my points about the writing any less true.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:44 pm (UTC)(link)Whoa nonny :S
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:55 pm (UTC)(link)An ad hominem is an attack on a person's character instead of their argument.
Say Stalin says "Don't invade Russia in winter."
Attacking Stalin's character doesn't make that statement any less true. Stalin was murderous dictator, but he's still right that you shouldn't invade Russia in winter.
Same with accusing him of bias -- Stalin is the leader of Russia so OF COURSE he doesn't want anyone to attack them at all. But, again, that doesn't make his statement less true.
I used an extreme example because I was worried you wouldn't get the point if I used something a tad more subtle.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:42 pm (UTC)(link)that would just make it easier for YOU and the other spirk fans to write out their relationship as her taking advantage of him, an argument that the slash fans use already no matter the evidence that she's his girlfriend and that he welcomed her tenderness and comfort because he was already familiar with her.
Knowing this fandom, of course you hate he got with her before vulcan is destroyed because you can't say they got together just because he was emotionally compromised. The writers make it harder for you because you have to reconcile, instead, with the fact that he got with her because it was his choice and not because he needed her in a bad moment. You can't accept the fact that he could find love in a person who is not Kirk and who made him able to put aside his control. You don't like that she is that person who, no matter how complicate or difficult, apparently made him decide he wanted to try to be in a relationship because he couldn't help it. Perhaps, the fact that he was with her already is the point and important to his arc, but you are too focused on who he loves to even get it.
If Spock had that kind of relationship with Kirk you all would be gloating about how perfect and touching your ship is the same way you now use him crying for kirk and not his mom as proof that he loves him (even more than his mother) no matter how OOC that scene is both for the character and the way k/s is developed. You don't need any written explanation to that relationship but you demand that the other fans explain to you why they ship what they ship and why your opinion is everything but 'objective'.
You would never like spock/uhura regardless.
I think you should get over yourself and reconcile with your own obvious bias.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:52 pm (UTC)(link)Are you shitting me?
Holy shit do you have a persecution complex.
The issue isn't with UHURA. It's with Spock. SHE didn't do anything wrong there. The problem is that SPOCK shouldn't have a significant other in the first place. A man that can't tell his mother he loves her is not capable of revealing his feelings for a student. You need to EXPLAIN HOW that happened because a HUGE part of Spock's character is his emotional repression.
If you throw that out, then he's not SPOCK.
Where have I said that UHURA did anything wrong?
"If Spock had that kind of relationship with Kirk you all would be gloating about how perfect and touching your ship is the same way you now use him crying for kirk and not his mom as proof that he loves him (even more than his mother)"
I have literally NEVER seen anyone say that Spock loves Kirk more than his mother. Ever. And even if they did it would be nonsensical since the circumstances of their deaths were so different.
"If Spock had that kind of relationship with Kirk you all would be gloating about how perfect and touching your ship is "
Not really. I would feel fucking cheated that we never got to see them FALL IN LOVE. Because that's what you need to address when it comes to a romance with Spock.
"You would never like spock/uhura regardless." Funny because I've read quite a few good Spock/Uhura fics and I quite enjoy it some of the McKirk fics I've read as well (where it's a common side pairing).
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 01:11 pm (UTC)(link)Say who? You?
This is a Spock from a different reality who was an instructor at the academy in a moment and time when Tos Spock was elsewhere making different experiences anbd meeting diufferent people. Who are you to even know the millions of casualities that made a relationship possible in this reality?
You don't even know if tos Spock ever had a relationship (according to Nimoy, for Roddenberry he did date when he was younger) you don't know what is in character for him when it comes to falling in love because they never developed this aspect with tos Spock.
Vulcans do fall in love too, just because you never saw this vulcan in a relationship before it doesn't mean he's incapable of having one, that was never said or proved.
All the more crazy is your belief he must be like tos Spock even in another reality whose main purpose IS making the characters different.
You guys are having this argument since 2009 aren't you a bit tired by it too? They had been a couple for two movies, all the comics and the videogame and you are still here having a nervous breakdown over this fictional pair, you still can't accept it.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 01:22 pm (UTC)(link)YES. BECAUSE IT CONTRADICTS TOS.
You're allowed to contradict TOS but there needs to be an explanation for SUCH a radical change.
Spock also went to the Academy in TOS -- he and his father had an over 10 year falling out about it over Spock going to Starfleet instead of the VSA. Just like in the reboots. It's the EXACT SAME.
The man can't tell his mother that he loved her. After being dosed with spores in TOS, he says it was the FIRST TIME he was really ever happy. These are literally his words:
"I have little to say about it, Captain, except that for the first time in my life I was happy."
So PLEASE don't pretend to me that Spock had a "relationship" -- if the first time he was truly happy was after the spores then whatever he experienced before could not have been truly loving/accepting.
Vulcans can fall in love. WHERE HAVE I DENIED THIS? But Spock -- because he was discriminated against so badly -- has NEVER felt comfortable expressing it. He's ASHAMED. He's ashamed of Friendship. HE CAN'T TELL HIS MOTHER HE LOVES HER.
How do you expect me to believe that he would feel comfortable being in a relationship with a student?
What they could have done, instead, was to show Spock IN LOVE with Uhura prior to Vulcan's destruction but too repressed to act. And then choosing to act on his feelings after talking with his father once his mother passed. THAT WOULD HAVE MADE SO MUCH SENSE.
But as it's written, it's completely unbelievable.
TOS Spock might be in a different reality BUT he has the same genetics as Reboot Spock. And every experience we are shown of reboot Spock prior to Vulcan's destruction EXACTLY MATCHES stuff we know about TOS Spock's childhood. So if you're going to throw out a huge part of Spock's character -- his emotional repression -- you NEED to address it because otherwise it's just OOC.
Why in the world do you think I'm having a nervous breakdown over it? I think they're a cute pair. And they definitely could work. But in the hands of better writers.
As written, it's unbelievably and OOC. Just like a bunch of stuff in the reboots (such as Kirk insulting Spock's Vulcan heritage when, in TOS, he said there would be no bigotry on the bridge -- once again, OOC with no explanation).
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 02:13 pm (UTC)(link)Spock also went to the Academy in TOS -- he and his father had an over 10 year falling out about it over Spock going to Starfleet instead of the VSA. Just like in the reboots. It's the EXACT SAME.
you don't seem to get the whole concept of alternate reality and butterfly effect, don't you? How it can be exactly the same? For the little we know, it's NOT.
Yes, he went to the academy in TOS too but was that choice made for the same exact reason and in the same exact moment? We don't know. He didn't talk with his father for more than 10 years in tos, but we don't know if it was the same in this reality too, maybe here he kept a relationship with his parents. In the movie nothing seems to suggest that him and Sarek were not in good terms.
You also missed the fact that in the tos universe Spock had been working on Pike's enterprise for 10 years before he became Kirk's first officer. Uhura was still graduating at the time, they probably never met each other in tos if not years later when Uhura joined enterprise round 2 and became Kirk's communication officer. You don't know what exactly happened to tos Spock that made him want to be more vulcan than vulcans either. Was that ever explained to you? Did the writers give you his whole backstory before the enterprise?
There are obviously some things that make the characters similar to their counterparts but 'some' doesn't make them identical and even those similar events might have gone a bit differently for whatever reason and coincidence in an universe that was irremediably changed by Nero's incursion.
Least but not least, in one of the tos novels written by D. C. Fontana (she was one of the tos writers) Spock's coldness in the series is explained as him having a bad experience with love when he was younger (he fell for someone when he was working with Pike and that girl died) and Nichelle Nichols said that Roddenberry wanted a Spock/Uhura relationship but he couldn't develop it because she was a black woman. Point is, even for the old writers Spock having a significant other wasn't unconceivable.
Essentially, you are reaching and griping for reasons which only you can discern.
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What gets me is they keep saying SPOCK is in the wrong, but we all know it's because how dare a woman put her disgusting fingers on our pwecious babu Vulcan, KIRK SAVE HIM.
+1
no lie was detected
I too think that's the real reason why they would prefer them getting together after the vulcan diaspora
& them being an item before that makes their relationship more solid, IMO
no subject
(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 11:51 am (UTC)(link)THAT is not OOC and doesn't shit on an already established character and his culture, THAT makes fucking sense, but him falling in love with the girl and kiss her like couples sometimes do? How outrageous, they ruined his character, I need the writers to explain it to me because it's too impossible he can care about someone (who is not Kirk).
This argument that it's ooc for Spock to put aside his logic for love is not believable because people are shipping kirk/spock since decades way before the reboot put him with Uhura so the problem obviously isn't him falling in love or being OOC but WHO he falls in love with. The fans had been arguing for years that Spock could love and function in a relationship and thus shipping him with Kirk or Mccoy or Chapel was legit. The reboot made this idea canon (he can fall in love, he can have a relationship with a human if he wants, just like his father did) just to your dismay they didn't make it canon with the character you wanted them to.
I have no doubt they wouldn't complain about the romance if it was between k/s and they had the same dynamic and development s/u have because 'their Spock' is much more OOC than the one we see in these movies and they actually use parts of the S/U pair for their ship (e.g., the many fics where he dates kirk or another cadet at the academy while he's the instructor, s/u moments rewritten as spirk)
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:08 pm (UTC)(link)They can BECOME friends. Writers can craft fan fiction where they apologize, where they come to grudgingly respect each other by working together, where they become friends by figuring out that they share interests (like chess or programming for example), and then build a relationship from there.
Are there aspects of Spock and Kirk's relationship in the new movies that are bad? Hell yeah.
The ridiculous KHAN! scream is just the cherry on top.
But it's not inconsistent with Spock's character because all of it happens AFTER Vulcan's destruction. So as a fan writer, you can at least use pieces of it and it isn't spitting on Spock's established characterization from TOS.
"This argument that it's ooc for Spock to put aside his logic for love is not believable because people are shipping kirk/spock since decades way before the reboot put him with Uhura so the problem obviously isn't him falling in love or being OOC but WHO he falls in love with."
NOPE.
Like I said, I think Spock/Uhura shippers have EVERY right to write "fix-it" fics that deal with these issues. I think those fan works are just as legitimate as any fan works that Kirk/Spock fans may produce.
It's not Spock FALLING IN LOVE that is OOC (He's always been able to even in TOS), it's his expression of feelings in the canon film that are awfully written and contradict EVERYTHING TOS establishes about his character while failing to provide a basis of divergence.
"I have no doubt they wouldn't complain about the romance if it was between k/s"
Then you'd be wrong. PLENTY of Kirk/Spock fans have, for example, criticized how over-the-top and nonsensical the KHAN! scream was.
"the many fics where he dates kirk or another cadet at the academy while he's the instructor, s/u moments rewritten as spirk"
Again, you're comparing canon with fanon. FANON DOES NOT HAVE TO BE CONSISTENT WITH CHARACTERIZATION. It's for FUN and often cracky. You can also find fan fiction of Spock dating his DAD, for god's sake. A lot of shippers write fan fiction as a fun "what-if?" but would never want to see it onscreen in that manner. They'd want to see something well done and in character.
If I read a fanfic of teacher Spock/student Kirk, where student Kirk blackmails teacher Spock into a relationship, it might be interesting in a "kink" sense but I'd NEVER EVER want to see it onscreen because it fucking butchers their characters and turns Kirk into a criminal and an asshole.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 12:55 pm (UTC)(link)Obviously, you think your opinion is a fact and objective even though your obvious shipping of the rival ship. Doesn't create the basis for any discussion and derailing the point with long essays about fandom entlitlement with non canon ships doesn't change the original one.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-08 01:04 pm (UTC)(link)Kindly refute them if you think they're false.
It's not opinion that they never address the discrepancies in Spock's behavior in TOS and the reboots. That is fact.
You want some of my issues with Kirk/Spock too? Well here they are:
-I hate that Spock feels the need to bring up Kirk's dead father during the hearing
-I hate that Kirk is made first officer and Spock doesn't put up more than a cursory protest against it
-I hate that Spock (completely illogically and illegally) throws Kirk off the ship
-I hate how neither of them ever apologizes (Kirk for what he says, even if he felt it was necessary and Spock for assaulting another officer)
-I hate the goddamned KHAN scream that's so fucking over the top and unbelievable
-I hate how Kirk now uses insults about Spock's biology ("pointy") when in TOS he was the first to speak up against bigotry against Spock -- and they never explain this difference in the reboots either
Want me to go on?
Thing is, I can fix a lot of this shit in fic. And I do. But that doesn't mean I won't criticize the writing of the film.
And here's the thing -- me shipping something else doesn't mean my points aren't legitimate. Someone who ships Bella and Mike in Twilight is not wrong if they criticize Edward/Bella as being abusive you know. If you can provide support from the text, that's what's important. And that's what I've done.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-09 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)Because I've seen a shit-ton of Spock/Kirk fans blow their tops at just the notion of that, and bite people's heads off when their ship is called a crack ship (which, considering how neurotic you are about Spock's logic and just the points you listed in your post, it fucking is).
You also keep insisting that Spock/Kirk's OOCness is more okay and easier to like because it's not canon like Spock/Uhura, which is bullshit hypocrisy when your main stance isn't about the entire audience and their mothers accepting the ship, but rather your bafflement that people would ship it at all. And I think you know that. If the OOCness of one ship isn't an issue to stop you shipping one ship, you shouldn't have this much problem getting why it wouldn't be a barrier for others on a different ship, ffs.
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(Anonymous) 2015-04-09 07:52 pm (UTC)(link)