fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3057 ]

[ SECRET POST #3057 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3057 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Polandball]

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[The X-Files]

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[Nick Lea/Krycek]

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[Plague Inc Evolved]

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(Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.)

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[Grimm]

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[Discworld]

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[Magi the labrynth of magic]

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[The Clangers]

Notes:

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Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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So, I've been thinking about this lately and I wanted to start a discussion about characterization that is out of character but still "legitimate" - i.e. the fics where a character is raised by different parents or where a crucial event did or did not happen to him or her. Or where you just genuinely like a character except for this one thing s/he does and purposefully ignore that.

For the characters you write, do you ever write them out of character on purpose? Is there a particular character flaw or attribute you ignore? Have you tried to explain away behavior you find inconsistent or just don't like?

Are there fics that have done a great job with an OOC character? Or other OOC characterizations that you approve/understand? Perhaps even prefer? What about the original character attracted you to him/her? What traits do you need to be consistent where anything else could change?

Basically, what are your thoughts on OOC?

(I've got some more specific examples but I'll wait for it to collapse b/c of length.)

Eh, the worst I ever do is give underdeveloped characters more personality and quirks than they got in their mother series. I always try to make it make sense, however.

This is something that's pretty easy to do when you write for some video games, tbh. No one could possibly care if you take team mate #3 and make them interesting instead of a bland HOO-AH intercom that goes off every few minutes.

I do this too. I love developing characters more fully.

But I wonder if it's a different conversation? Like, is it really OOC if the character has no characterization? (I assume you stay true to the small bits that are there, or do you mean you ignore that in favor of your own characterization?)

Well, I haven't ever really ignored characterization that's already there. I just expand on it. You could argue that those sorts of interpretations take the character in a different direction than the one that was theoretically intended, though.

I have seen people just straight up replace minor characterization to marvelous effect, though. So maybe that's kind of the same thing?

But yeah, I do a lot of making up of personalities for one-dimensional characters, especially if that character is "the catty one" or "the stoic one".

I think characters, like people, have a set core. To ignore that core would be to make that character not that character at all any more. You can usually tell what that core is because the character themselves ICly values the things they stick to. But characters also have a lot of other traits that aren't as intrinsic, and that gives a lot of room to play around with AU.

Hermoine from Harry Potter is always going to be a driven, nerdy type of character that is determined and intelligent and values determination and intelligence. That's part of her core. If you remove that, she stops being Hermione. What she's nerdy about isn't set in stone, though. AU her into art school where she's determined to be the best illustrator in her class, or determined to be the first astronaut on Mars, and it may not be magic but it's still IC.

I agree with this. I tend to phrase it as "staying true to the spirit of the character" . Even WITH different circumstances there should be something familiar there.

Honestly in most reasonable cases if you can do a good job SHOWING why they have this deviance from the canon, and do a good job of explaining where it came from in a way the audience can follow, I wouldn't consider that being OOC. But if NO ONE can see where it came from, that's when people start thinking "OOC"

This is how I feel too.

I don't write many AUs, but when I do the whole point of it for me is to figure out how such a different setting/past/circumstances would still lead to the recognizable character we know from canon. I want to see how different experiences and events might have given them a new path, but that path will still have shaped their personality.

It's a dirty word lately apparently, but I feel the same way about genderbending in fic. Most characters' experiences are going to be wildly different if they've been/been presenting as male rather than female throughout canonical events, but I still want the core of their personality to remain true to canon. In that case it's a matter of working out how those different experiences would have informed who that character is today.

I agree so much. If you take that character and stick them into an AU, they should still be that character even if the circumstances are different. Sadly, many people feel that just because it's an AU, it's all good reason to make the character act any way they want. Which is why I stay away from most AU's.

1) I like John Winchester from SPN but I realize I tend to minimize the abusive side to him. I started to like JW during the first season and I generally call bullshit on all the stuff the writers have people in the show say about JW; I base my characterization on what I saw from JDM's performance. But even that had some sketchy stuff. I prefer loving, healthy relationships and I've come up with explanations for his behavior (i.e. the cupid mark) that allow him to act differently later on. I just want to explore the relationship between JW and his sons if he'd been a better father I guess.

I hadn't thought this was so OOC before. (I guess because I've been in disagreement with the SPN writers for so long - I was reading JW's actions in the best light you could). But, most fans seem to accept that there was some level of abuse/neglect going on. And yet, so long as he's not suddenly warm and cuddly, would you really warn for OOC if he was being more attentive? I feel like he's shown a more loving side and I'm just more focused on that.

2) I like Thorin (mostly for RA's performance). But I realize I like him to be nicer. In the books, he has a lot of unlikeable traits and few good ones. I liked some of the things the movie explored about wanting to reclaim a homeland, etc. But even the movies have him suffering gold sickness, being mean to Bilbo, etc. And I also have a very book-bent in how I read things so I don't agree with a lot of how things were handled in the films anyway.

That said, when I write Thorin, I generally write him as the best I think he could be. I make him more considerate and kind, make him more affectionate with his nephews, more willing to talk to elves, etc. I don't ignore his wariness, impatience and gruff demeanor, etc. but I like to see him be nicer. I didn't realize that this is probably pretty OOC, and yet most of the fics I read write him as much nicer or understanding than he ever is in the books/films too.

I don't know where I'm going with this but it was something I noticed recently. People are quick to say how much they hate OOC, and I think they generally mean woobifying or drastic examples, but I feel like there's a gray area too and I'd like to hear people's thoughts.

I think John Winchester being physically abusive is totally fanon. I *never* got that vibe from him on Show or from Sam or Dean.

Yes, he was driven to the point of obsession, and yes, he did neglect his sons. But he wasn't some horrible monster. He *did* have a loving side - i think the boys prove that.

I agree about the physical abusiveness, although I think the show has been pushing this lately (which pisses me off). Like, there have been comments by Dean and Sam that suggest some kind of harsh treatment. But, coming so far after we actually saw JDM and in seasons that have been such messes, I discount what the writers are saying about JW. I think it's just more needless drama they're trying to stir up to provide needless conflict between the boys.

That said, I find that when I write JW, I handwave even the fact that he's neglectful. I just like the idea of him as an awesome dad. To me, I think he would've been a very good dad if Sam hadn't been in danger from Yellow Eyes, etc.

I think what illustrates my point is that at the end of S1, I saw what JW did as a sacrifice of love. He loved Dean so much that he traded his soul for him. But, a lot of people found it manipulative and a terrible thing to do to Dean. I mostly view it as a terrible situation and JW trying to do the best he could because he loved Dean. It's certainly no worse than all the times the boys have done questionable things to keep each other around.

But the show now seems to side with everyone who thinks JW is abusive, etc. His marriage to Mary was no longer a good one. Sam and Dean both talk smack about him when he comes up. Only this season did I hear the first good thing about him in a long time. So, when I write him as an awesome dad, it feels like it's OOC. And yet, I felt when watching the first season that he was an awesome dad.

I suppose the issue is the change of a character over time and how much fidelity is expected by fandom. Like, I adore Cas from the first few episodes where he was cold and badass and menacing. He's so different now that I would put a note saying my fic is based on those first few episodes and exploring if that was really all there was to him, etc.

Oh, he definitely loved the boys, and where he was coming from was a place of absolute love and devotion to his family. But unfortunately, he was a *frightened* man. Terrified by the secrets he'd discovered, the hidden world, and his own family's place in it.

And i think fear makes you do things that can be pretty awful. He admitted to Dean, right before his deal, how he's put too much pressure on him as a little boy, leaned on his pre-teen son to bolster him up, pull him back from the dark places he went.

I think he *saw* his failings as a father - obsession, dictatorialness, inflexibility - but was helpless to counteract them in the face of his very real fear, and the helpless feeling of being one man standing between the world of monsters and his children.

The 'not a good marriage' thing always made sense to me, since we found out that the angels/god/cupids *made* John and Mary fall in love, because that fulfilled the 'prophecy' of the end times. So friction and perhaps some miss-matching (and John being a Vietnam survivor, and probably having some PTSD, and Mary being an ex-hunter, under the incredible strain of hiding all that, and not telling John) was inevitable.

But i think they loved each other, and did they best they could. Imagine Mary knowing how her father died, and how she got John back, and living with that, in secret, for years....

In short - ha! - I think John was pretty awesome, too, but to ignore the non-awesome stuff cheats him of depth of character (in my mind).

I do rather love the Castiel of his first season, how powerful, and how torn, he was. I do miss that.

I think that often there's a bit of a blurred line between actual OOC and fanon. I would cite John Winchester as an example of that. Part of characterization in fandom is also consensus about how to view certain scenes and situations, and there's a lot of people feeding into each other (for example, in Attack on Titan there are two camps of Levi characterization - "Levi is a horrible abusive asshole" vs. "Levi is sassy, gruff, and misunderstood". imo #2 is a *bit* closer to canon, but people generally butcher his personality in a lot of creative ways.)

I think that identifying "true" ooc as opposed to not-fanon-consensus characterization can be tough.
In one of my fics, a pretty long WIP for FMA, I made a decision to take Alphonse Elric's characterization in a different direction. It was an AU on the end of the series, but I also tried to deal with some darker aspects, and most importantly - I didn't portray him as a sweet ball of sunshine, which is fandom consensus. (in this case, he has lost his memories, nobody will tell him the truth about what happened to him and his brother, and he feels very disconnected. I characterized him as becoming a bit obsessed with finding his brother, mistrustful of everybody, and insisting on doing everything himself. This is a very bare-bones description, though). I got people criticizing me for writing him OOC, and while I accept it to a certain extent, I will (and have) defend the characterization as believable for the character. Anyway, over time we see him grow up a bit and grow closer to his "natural" state of being.
It was very controversial for a while there, though, haha.

I do hate how nowadays it seems that ~everything~ is IC because ~that's just how I see the character, tee hee~.

On the opposite side, in another fic (Attack on Titan, this time) I had to write a situation where the relationship between two characters was almost reversed from how it was in canon (disenfranchised vs. enfranchised, experienced vs. newbie, 'monster' vs. 'hero', etc), and trying to write them while keeping them IC was incredibly challenging. It demanded a LOT of thought about 'core' characterization and relationship dynamics, and some very careful writing. In the end, though, readers said it worked - so I guess I can count that as a win.

It's been a long time since I read any FMA, but your portrayal of Al strikes me as a pretty good example of how to develop a character in an alternative universe. I'm thinking about how he behaved after the "Two Guardians" episode where that one suit of armor ("Barry the Chopper"?) suggested to him that he wasn't...well, him. And he became a little obsessed with his identity and whether there was an actual Alphonse inside that armor of his, and he lost his trust in Ed and eventually they had a fight? So I think Al is capable of being obsessive and mistrustful. The insistence on doing everything himself even sounds fairly Ed-like, actually.

I think that often the fandom will reduce a complex, multifaceted character to one note, one quirk, and ignore all the rest of their canon characterization, and when an author doesn't do that, they're told the character is OOC when they're really not.

I think that often the fandom will reduce a complex, multifaceted character to one note, one quirk, and ignore all the rest of their canon characterization, and when an author doesn't do that, they're told the character is OOC when they're really not.

Yeah, that's exactly it. Fanon characterization in a nutshell :|

Regarding Al - that's exactly what I was playing off of! Al has some darker moments, it's just that people don't often write his characterization in that direction. Al is mostly the kitten guy.
In this case, another element of his development was that after Ed vanished and everybody was sure Ed was dead and Al was sure he wasn't, Al wanted to keep Ed's memory alive. So some of what he did was to dress like Ed, and act in the way that he thought Ed would approve of - but he was basically emulating the version of Ed from newspapers and from people's stories. Very exaggerated and over-the-top. Then, when Ed actually did show up, Al was kind of shattered and confused and had to start figuring out how to be *himself* and not an Ed-knockoff.

I'd read the hell out of that.

Well, if you actually want to - the fic is Mirrorworld.

A few notes about it, though:
1. The fic is a post-2003 anime Ed/Alfons Heiderich pairing. The main plot is how Ed convinces Alfons that he truly is from another world, and Alfons starts getting into helping him open the Gate to go home. It basically ignores the movie and goes from there.
It's a romance, but there's a lot of plot, and later on a whole bunch of characters get characterization too. Most of the Al stuff is in his two interludes, and in the 3rd story arc (which is about 100k).

2. The fic literally gets better as it goes along. I began it years ago, and you can watch my writing develop chapter by chapter, haha.

3. It WILL be completed. There's only one chapter to go.

If you still want to read it, enjoy XD

I was thinking about this the other day. There are many good fics in my fandom that are technically OOC but do a really good job of recreating the characters' dynamics.

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[ SECRET POST #3057 ]

Out of Character

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OP - Further Examples

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sorry for the tl;dr at this late hour

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Re: Out of Character