fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #380 ]

[ SECRET POST #380 ]

⌈ Secret Post #380 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

↓ This is why you probably won't have to worry about 100 secrets a post fdhfjh

Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 250 secrets from Secret Submission Post #055.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 2 3 4 ] not!secrets, [ 1 2 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] too big, [ 1 2 ] repeats, [ 1 ] comment with no link.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, January 21st, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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23- News Flash. I like the dynamic in a relationship. I hate the females because THEY DON'T PROVIDE THE DYNAMICS I LIKE. And when they do, I like them, usually (or don't DISLIKE them even if their not what I ship.)

News flash part two. A male with the same personality traits as a female is not the same kind of human being as the female, as there are, amazingly, difference in the sexes that would change the context of those personalit traits.

This isn't a blanket law, but to use a REALLY obvious black and white example, as your secret shows you seem to think in black and white, a bouncy, hyper male who wears gothic-lolita type clothes, is NOT the same kind of character a bouncy, hyper female who wears em. There's all sorts of different implications going on with both characters, and what I may enjoy with the male, I may not enjoy with a female.

Really, it's not as simple as "Tits? GTFO."

Um, question.

What are the other implications?

Basically, why is a penis such a big deal? If looks, personality, and position in the story are the same... Why does having a penis give a different implication?

You can't tell me that culturally, a boy who wears a dress doesn't have a different set of mind then a girl who wears a dress?

Because a girl who wears one, by most cultures is normal, and a boy who wears one is a boy who is pressing himself out of the norm for whatever reason. That action shows there's some reason he doesn't set himself in with what is normally cultural accepted of a boy.

Pretty much I don't believe you could easily have a boy that fits the role of most females I dislike because a boy acting like that would usually means different things that a girl acting like that. It goes both way, I can't imagine liking some of my favorites females if they were girls. Sex organs are not the only difference between the sexes.

That's a very shallow interpretation of it, and we could get into tons of implications about cross dressing, etc, and there's also a million more different kinds of examples, BUT if characters existed in a vacuum, no, there wouldn't be much of a difference. But they don't, and at least I personally, consider all those different thing when I like a couple.

Let me guess: You write fanfic about how the slash couple are constantly persecuted against by all the other characters for their forbidden love and how they get beaten up when the mpreg comes along.

Nope, don't write fanfics at all, and shudder at that idea.

I just understand that boys=/=girls. Figured it out pretty early on in life too.

And for reference, if the cross dressing hyper gothic lolita boy existed, I'd probably hate his guts, whether it was real life or a character. It's just a pretty vivid example that I figured would get the point across. If you've ever meet the type, they are very different from the girl who do it, and to me markedly less tolerable (Of those I've meet. There may be a horridly sweet hyper cross dressing Loli boy out there somewhere)

You failed to answer my question.

I said looks, not clothes.

If a boy looks the same, and don't give me culture bullshit as plenty of anime boys have long hair, acts the same, and has the same position in the story...

Why does he have a different implication than a female version of him?

I think you're grasping at straws here to justify hating female characters. Or maybe you're bad at elaborating, however... Most females get a bad rap in a the anime culture, and it's really hard to pinpoint why, as apparently, you can't create a perfect enough girl for most anime and video gamers who are girls.

The complaints are usually: "Too fanservicey! Too homely! Too nice! Too bitchy! Too blah! Too much of a Mary Sue!"

Whereas if the female characters presented simply had a penis, they would get less pointless hate.

A prime example of such a character is the one in my icon, Zelos Wilder. By sheer stroke of fate, he was made as a boy, despite having so many features I consider girly. Personally, I don't think it would have been so bad if he'd been a girl, but at the same time, I recognize that he probably would not have been anywhere near as popular if he were.

Just a thought.

Dude, you are missing the point.

Most people hate on the females for having they hate on them for having weak, flat personalities. And I don't necessarily mean that the character is weak, I mean the person creatiny them made a weak concept. The girl who ONLY can kick ass....is a weak personality. If she falls into one of the neat little sterotypes anime has so often...the sweet homemaker, the big breasted butt kicker, the "Cutie"...not that that can be part of who she has, but there should be MUCH more there. I can give you good and bad example till the cows come home, but anyone who watches anime knows 'em (Hello Oh! My Goddess!)

A female should not be flat and capable to be described in 2 sentences. If she's "too anything", yeah, it's bad. That's true for all characters. It's why anyone with two brains cells probably isn't fond of Shuichi from Gravitation. Females, in anime fandom, just get hit with it a lot more, mainly because there's a lot more flat females in anime, or there were. The hate isn't always "pointless" despite what you may think.

And, as for the clothes things, you CHOOSE what you wear. If someone CHOOSE to run around in their underwear, it shows something about them, about their personality. If they CHOOSE to cover every inch of flesh, it shows another...clothing is a character trait. A boy dressing in a dress means he chooses to go against the norms for whatever reason (Hello ParaKiss's Isabella~)

Bridget from Guilty Gear is a perfect example. If Bridget was a GIRL he would be a very different character. It might not have changed the game or anything, but it'd change him.

If a male is a submissive pansy ass, it means something different then if a female is a submissive pansy ass. It's not as simple as "Boys in anime have long hair too!" That's not the point. The point is clearly going over your head. A culture sets standards for a sex, and the way the character, in their canon's reacts to those standards is a reflection of their character.

If you took a disliked female and gave them a penis, they'd just be a girl with a dick. Doesn't matter if it's Hinata or Tifa or Rinoa (From what it sounds like, Boy!Rinoa IS Shuichi, and plenty of people hate him. But IDK that fandom well), or whatever...you can't just change their sex. Sexual identity is part of a character, it's not interchangeable that easy with most characters.

Word.

And for reference, Rinoa is the "Even though I can't really fight, and have no special powers that I'm aware of, I'll just go and defeat the all-powerful sorceress all by my self! I'm sure there won't be any problems!" type of character that drives me mad.

I mean, when male characters go to face a big evil, it's usually to overcome it, or to have a big, important realisation about themselves/the plot/the world/whatever. When a female character does it, it's generally to move male characters' personality/storyline forward.

Really, it's why I still stand by the statement that there are almost no female charcters that are as good as the males, even now. They might not all be submissive and nurturing/caring anymore, but they're usually just as flat and uninteresting, completely static, and with no character development.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Sorry.

I think my entire point for why females are so hated was missed. Because a lot of the "flat" personalities that are dissed aren't that flat at all. And it sounds like both of you are holding the male characters on a higher platform than female characters.

Or maybe it's reversed, and that's why no one likes the female characters.

And, as far as I know, in the Gravitation fandom, Shuichi is loved. :/

I haven't even read Gravitation, and know nothing about how Shuuichi is liked; I think someone else talked about him?

Anyway, my main point was that female characters get very little development, and that's why they're less interesting. Yeah, male characters can start out just as flat, but they generally grow throughout the series.

I think I had an example, yes? The difference in how similar situations are handled for male and female characters annoys me like nothing else.

I mean, there are lots of female characters that I love; pretty much everybody in Utena,Princess Tutu, Slayers, xxxHolic, Tsubasa, and FMA for example. It's a lot harder to find good ones in shonen manga and video games, where they tend to be reduced to plot robots (though I thought the female characters in FFXII where really good).

...I think I'd kick her in the teeth. ~~And if Shuichi has some big evil to fight, I'm sure he'd do that too.~~

I do think it's getting better, slowly but surely, especially if you know which animes to look for. But yeah, it is hard to find females that live up to the males, which is just SAD. Where are the female role models? Even when you have females people LIKE a lot of times they're not given the screen time they deserve, or they're liked AFTER the male character. How many people have a female listed as their top top favorite? I know I adore tons of females in Naruto, but only ones even in my top 5.

Oy, I'm sounding very feminist, but yeah.

It's hard when you like the shonen type of storytelling. Though there are series which are very good with their female characters, they're not exactly in the majority.

I loved Utena for precisely that reason: heroic storyline (well... among other things XD), but female protagonist. And she was given the same amount of development and growth as a male character would have!

If she falls into one of the neat little sterotypes anime has so often...

If you think this is more of a case with female anime characters than male, you fall into one of the following:

1) You haven't seen much anime, or the anime you watch it biased in genre or target group.
2) You're biased against female characters in anime and judge them on different criteria, not different in type (as you argue above), but different in degree (namely harder).

If a male is a submissive pansy ass, it means something different then if a female is a submissive pansy ass.

Yes, it means that in your world view, men are allowed to be pansy asses without being described as "a weak, flat character" while women are not. Why else would you argue that is a character can be summed up in one sentence that's bad -- and them bring up this example to implicitly (not explicitly, I never said you said this explicitly, so please refrain from the "I never said that" excuse) state that male characters can be good characters even if they can be described in less than one sentence, as you yourself did here.

Sorry, I call bullshit. I'm not saying everyone has to love every female character ever created, but in my view of fandom, it's fact that females are judged on a much harsher basis than males. You're a prime example.

I've watched plenty of anime, and hence can see the sterotypes. Trust me, I've seen more anime then most people should.

And yes, males have sterotypes to. However, as a general rule, males get more attention, as they're usually bigger characters, and they also have more categories of character types to fall into. So they both have a more varied start of what type they are, and get more fleshed out so they aren't JUST the stereotype. Japan is a male dominated society, and it shows in their pop culture. It's not something limited to anime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_stock_characters), it just something that happens in fiction, but I think, in general, from the way fandom reacts, the stock females Japanese people like (Moe, Yamato Nadeshiko) are NOT the same stock females American girl will relate to. There's a huge cultural gap there. Anime is a genre that has a higher ratio of what would be considered weak characters by most western stereotypes. Just like romance novels have a higher standard of mary sues and flat males.

Now part of the problem here is you are trying to combine two of my points that are not in actuality combined.

Point a) A female character who acts like a male characters is not alike.

b) Flat characters are not good.

I did not say I'd like or dislike the pansy ass male, nor did I say I'd like or dislike the pansy ass female. I just said they'd be different characters with different motivations. I quiet like both Hinata and Obito from Naruto, and they're both "weak" people, but handled well. If the male was a BAD pansy ass character, I would dislike him just as much as I disliked the bad pansy ass female. Being a pansy ass=/=being a bad character. In fact I listed a bad male example, and said "If she's "too anything", yeah, it's bad. That's true for all characters."

So um...learn to read? Since you seem to have fail reading skills, let me sum up: Flat characters are bad.

And on a TOTALLY DIFFERENT POINT boys=/=girls.

And if I simply judged females harder then males, why is anime the only thing I'm into where the females fail to measure up? Oh, sure, here and there a female fails in all my other fictional interest but in general I'm more female oriented then male. So um...yeah. Logic does not compute. I call defensive assumption making BS.

This isn't a blanket law, but to use a REALLY obvious black and white example, as your secret shows you seem to think in black and white,

Would you still be making that statement if I used white on black? Just wondering.

I hate yaoi fanbrats, not fangirls. Which is what my post was about. Disliking all the recent post secrets where they all blame females for why they feel they 'must' ship yaoi. Where the secerts practically were "Tits? GTFO." That's a stupid reason.

I like het, I like slash, but mainly, I like how a character's personality would play off another character with similar or a contrasting personality. Gender never factors into any of my ships. I like what I like and I'm not going to flip out on someone who likes something different than me.

XD then you would have been thinking in white and black?

I agree that you shouldn't flip out on someone not liking something you like, or vice versa, but most, not all the secret have been towards a certain type of girl (or a list of girls). I think it's more then fair not to like a certain character type. To flip it around to guys, for example, I don't normally like the "Hero" type, and generally show less interest in them in all way, shapes, and forms. A few times it has lead me to find the yuri couples more interesting, or secondary het couples, because I don't tend to like that kind of character.

XD Black, white and RED. Don't forget the red. :3

If you don't a certain character type, I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with saying that the female is the reason why they write slash. It's stupid and if your only reason for liking yaoi is because of the sex then just say it. No one will condemn you for it. "The internet is for porn~", after all. There's no need 'blame' a gender for liking slash.

I just hope some of those anti-female posts were just trolls trying to fan the flames.

XD what happens when a Zebra gets sun burned?

BUT I think I interpreted from the wrong angle, or at least partially...you're not so much in defense of females who are weak, as much as disliking that they have such a shallow reason to ship something? Or that they use such a shallow excuse instead of just being like "I want hot man sex." That they should like what they like for it's own reasons?

I agree 100% and see your point very much if I'm following. A couple should be a couple cause it's a GOOD couple, not cause the alternative suck. I do kinda understand the wanting to...strangle a lot of female characters, but that's not cause they "get in the way" or anything. I just want more female character who kick butt. But I think a lot of that is, at least in anime fandom, part of the HUGE cultural gap still going on.

AND WHY DOES ALL MY WRITING TONIGHT SOUND SO PHONY PRETENTIOUS. Blah. And sorry I'm so like "Your info, give it" I just use this comm for research for my yaoi panels when it comes up (Which are about not being fanbrats who do this kinda thing) but on the flip side sometimes I get hyper touchy about it because so many people consider all yaoi fans "yaoi fanbrats"

XD

I suppose I worded it too vaguely but that is precisely that statement I was trying to make: don't blame a gender for wanting some same-sex sex.

I certainly don't consider all yaoi fans 'yaoi fanbrats' but I do admit just like how het fans have a bad name, it's because the loudest and most vocal of the fans are usually the fanbrats. For the most part het fans and yaoi fans are good fangirls and boys but too bad they get overshadowed by the brats and make all fans seem pathetic and stupid. D:

Yay! We have communicated on the internet!

But yes, I agree most heartily. The loudest get heard. Unfortunately at my panels, it was kinda like preaching to the choir. The panel was full of people going "YES OMG YES A 100 TIMES!" and all the yaoi fanbrats were chasing around poor boys with yaoi paddles.

I would love to see the day where the fans who like both slash and het become the vocal fans and are considered fanbrats. XD For some reason it would be weird and funny.

Yaoi fan: "OMG don't listen to her. She's a het/yaoi fanbrat. They're all nuts."
Het fan: "...god damn those het/yaoi fanbrats. PICK A SIDE!"

...we could unite the internets fandoms. :O!

"Jesus they just want the best of both world DON'T they?!"

But if the femme weren't getting in the way, and the ghey wasn't getting in the way....WHAT WOULD GET IN THE WAY!?

...I'm tempted to say furries. >__> *gets shot*

Re: 23

penguinfaery.livejournal.com - 2008-01-21 04:21 (UTC) - Expand

Totally agreed.

I was actually just struggling with this idea when I was brainstorming a story I want to start working on for fun. :) Deciding whether or not a love interest to the protagonist would be male or female... It really does change things entirely, even if they're both pretending to be the opposite gender.

...yeah, it's kind of a weird story. XD

Oh, sounds interesting. I love gender play, it's so delicately complicated. Good luck with that!

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