fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3120 ]

[ SECRET POST #3120 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3120 ⌋

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Notes:

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Inspired by some comments above.

Do you ever feel like modern feminism ignores or excludes you and focuses more on straight women?

(And before anyone accuses me of being an MRA trying to start wank, I'd like it on the record that I am a lesbian and consider myself a feminist. I'm asking about this because I'm honestly curious.)

No.

I feel it ignores gay men who have done all the work and lifting in the movement whilst facing the worst attacks been betrayed the second we've made things half tolerable with 'muh intersectionality, muh poor proud poc didn't do no hate crimes'

wut?

Since when is FEminism about gay MEN?

Did you confuse feminism for LGBT rights in general when you read the question?

The worst attacks? Really? Gay men are generally not raped to make them straight. The experiences of gay men are different in some ways than that of lesbians, but that does not mean they are worse.

Honey, if you think gay men aren't raped as part of being assaulted for being gay, you need to do some research.

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

(Anonymous) - 2015-07-21 06:11 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

(Anonymous) - 2015-07-21 22:43 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

(Anonymous) - 2015-07-21 23:55 (UTC) - Expand

You know that... sexual assault against gay men is an ENORMOUS HUGE THING, right?

both feminism and LGBT rights activism ignore trans people a lot more and they did a lot of heavy lifting in the movement way back when

Parts of it. But I also feel like the LGTBQ movement often ignores issues specific to lesbians. And often gays and lesbians ignore the specific experiences of bisexuals (and vice versa). And all these movements tend to ignore experiences specific to members of racial or ethnic minorities.

Basically, every single social justice movement ever sucks at intersection. They tend to focus on their own specific experiences and ignore the experiences of others. This is in no way unique to feminism.

I am legitimately unsure what "modern feminism" is or refers to since there are so many different people claiming it is a billion different things

No. In fact the reason the TERFs LesHaters are so vocal right now is because, like the MRAs, they are finding that they no longer have as much power and say as they used to. The women's movement used to be incredibly T-E and had tremendous problems with lesbians, and it used to be very common for Lib-meets to have no-trans no-dykes rules. The places that still have them are exceptions now, and are usually under attack for it. I'm not saying it has gone away, and everything is roses now, but compared to what it used to be even ten years ago never mind thirty or forty (although, I would say about twenty years ago it was probably slightly better than now, just because of the post cold-war peace and love bubble) it is much better than it used to be.

This.

Feminism as a movement? Not all of it certainly. But, as a lesbian, I find myself unhappy with some of the rhetoric straight feminists use when discussing lesbians and other queer women. Some feminists as individuals are exclusionary.

Haaaahhahaha I am a feminist and I've been told more times than I can count that I'm not or that I'm not welcome because I'm a queer man.

Not saying all female feminists are like that, nor that the movement hasn't done a fuckload for people like me, but yeah.

Yeah there are assholes out there regardless of which political movement they identify with.

That would be because you are an ally. Too many men expect to be given leading roles within every movement simply by declaring themselves part of it. It isn't your fault, it is an unconscious social expectation mostly due to be brought up in a culture which automatically gives men more status, so it can be hard for men to adjust to a movement where they are not automatically in charge by being part of it. That doesn't mean you are unwelcome as an ally, nor that you are of less value as a person, and it definitely does not mean you cannot hold feminist views, but you can only be an ally not a feminist. A voice in the backing singers, not the face of the band.

lol go be part of the problem somewhere else.

I don't actually agree that men can't be feminists. Men shouldn't be the leaders of the movement because the point of feminism is to empower women and their voices. But that doesn't mean that men can't be feminists. Feminist=wants to empower women. Allies can be feminists too. Men can't be women, they can only be allies. But feminism includes both women and allies.

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

herpymcderp - 2015-07-21 01:14 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

(Anonymous) - 2015-07-21 01:35 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

philstar22 - 2015-07-21 01:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

elialshadowpine - 2015-07-21 12:38 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

herpymcderp - 2015-07-21 03:01 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

(Anonymous) - 2015-07-21 22:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: question for lgbt/queer people

cbrachyrhynchos - 2015-07-21 01:18 (UTC) - Expand

Men can be feminists. Feminism is a philosophy, not an inherent identity. It's super whiny to try to equate it to LGBT "allies" or whatever. Sure, many men are bad feminists (then again, so are many women, tbh), but "ally" is ridiculously stupid.

Depends on the branch of feminism.

As a lesbian I would say both yes and no. The thing is, "modern feminism" is a very broad definition.

Yeah, feminism is a much broader church these days. And that is a good thing, mostly. A few decades ago it was a much tighter movement, with fewer leading voices in it.

It's become more intersectional as a movement. Hopefully that will be the mainstream one day

being a gay man I don't think feminism owes me any focus, but I do think the focus is probably on straight women than it is lesbian women in feminism, especially in this defensive age of feminism when people want to be for equal rights but will in the same breath say, "but I'm not one of those hairy-legged lesbians or anything!" feminism has been softened and branded to appeal to a "general audience," and as a result has ignored topics that could cause a rift such as trans women, lesbians, homelessness, and anything that can't have a cute pink ribbon put on it.

I'm a lesbian.

Feminism doesn't have a single definition. Ask a hundred feminists what they think feminism is, you could get a hundred different answers. To me, feminism really should be about pursuing equality of the genders and dismantling harmful gender stereotypes. The focus may be women (because women generally get the more raw end of the deal) but I think it's integral that it include men, too. Because unlike some feminists, I think the system of sexism is perpetuated by both men and women, and both men and women suffer for it.

As far as gay issues. I think feminism is generally supportive, but the radical man-hating crowd, who I like to think don't represent feminism, can be really alienating. Since gay people by definition are pushing gender norms, I think they ought to be part of the movement. But yeah if anything, the feminism I see on the internet tends to be the really radical ones that try to be so progressive, they end up being exclusive.

Yeah, this is why I'm very cautious about what feminist groups I'm part of (oddly, the most reasonable ones I've found have been on FetLife). As long as an ally isn't trying to take over the conversation... we kinda need allies. Every minority group does, because as much as it annoys the fuck out of me, people will listen to allies over people of the minority group. If an ally is able to change minds, great! (I'd much prefer people be able to listen to actual minorities, but that's... just not the case a lot of the time.)

I identify as a somewhat radical feminist, but even I find that a lot of them are especially ridiculous. I am cautious of men who make this big deal about being feminists, because they are often try to take over the conversation or are using it as a Nice Guy tactic to get into bed with women, but there are others who are actually trying to help, and they shouldn't get tarred with the same brush. I do not care for exclusivity, and various forms of feminism are especially so (thinking of TERFs here, among others). I have myself been excluded and told I was a traitor to my gender because my partner at the time was an AMAB non-binary person. The response being, from AFAB genderqueers no less, that AMAB genderqueers were just faking it to "escape their male privilege"... while at the same time being extremely (justifiably) vicious towards people who made similar comments about trans women.

I've also been told that I have "passing privilege" because my non-binary partners have had difficulty expressing androgyny because most of the common suggestions and clothing options you see are masculine based, meant for AFAB people. I was like, "Wait... you're telling me that because my partner is constantly misgendered as male, I have passing privilege?" and they said yes. I'm like... fuck that shit. I am interested in women and primarily feminine-identifying non-binary people, and I don't particularly care about body. Somehow, this makes me a gender traitor to some feminists. I've been told this more than once... even after I have mentioned that I have a fiancee and girlfriend and I am regularly out in public with them being openly affectionate (so just how am I passing?), but somehow that doesn't count. Sigh.

Lesbian here too.

Feminism isn't one thing, silly. But straight women have the most power, visibility and numbers, and so it's not a surprise that most dialogues about women will focus on their interests.

Some feminism is pretty dyke-centric. Some feminism works very hard to be inclusive. But most straight women talk about their own interests, and whatever other identities they have too.

I don't feel alienated by "modern feminism" as a lesbian, I feel alienated by heterosexism and homophobia, and sometimes women who speak up for equality are focused more on straight women's issues and forget about the queers.

I've found very little anti-lez rhetoric though, that's more of a 60s thing.

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