fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3132 ]

[ SECRET POST #3132 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3132 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 068 secrets from Secret Submission Post #448.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
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So, I knew that elitism was a thing in this fandom, but I hadn't realized quite how extreme it could be until yesterday. I joined this facebook group. And there was one post that devolved into this LOTR book vs. movie discussion. And even though the rules of the group actually specify not insulting other fans, there was this one guy who kept insisting that movie-only fans were not real fans.

So I made a comment saying that all fans are true fans. And he told me that I was personally contributing to the dumbing down of modern culture. Someone else commented that they didn't enjoy the books because they found them difficult to read. And he insulted their reading skills and intelligence.

What the hell? Who takes fandom that seriously?

It's the same for anything where some people need to feel better than others. He's probably a sad little man in real life.

Re: Book vs movie - I can see where people come from on this. I mean I would never say that movie fans aren't "real" fans but it does feel like we're fans of very different things. It's easy to take something personally when the media means so much to you, and I know I am very frustrated by a lot of PJ's choices and how those choices are now more main-stream than what's actually in the book.

I mean, I like that he did a little towards individualizing the characters. I am happy to view Dwalin as a big scary second-in-command. But it's also clear that PJ didn't care about or didn't understand the details of Middle-earth. It would be one thing if it served the story but, for instance, having Nori be a thief doesn't serve any narrative function and actually doesn't make sense when they need Bilbo to be a thief. And now it's just ingrained so that if I look for a fic with him, he's going to always be a thief. Rarely does an author make their own Nori. From the book, you can do practically anything you want with this character but he now has a generally-agreed-upon characterization and you'd have to state if you're deviating from that. So, that can be sad for book!fans.

I believe that the Hobbit films were for the most part enjoyable but they were not to the level of LOTR. If they had been, I don't think there would be so many book!fans pushing so hard back against the movies. If, for instance, Tauriel had been written without the romance (or the romance hadn't been so clunky), more people would have been okay with her.

At least that's how I view it. I heard a film critic once say that if a movie adaption is great, then the fans won't nitpick about the details (generally. there's always going to be that one guy). But if the film isn't good, then fans will nitpick to death. I think there may be a grain of truth in that.

(BTW, congrats on finishing your test!)

Thanks! And I do agree with you (although in this case the discussion was strictly about LOTR and not Hobbit too). I think the books are better by far, though I still love all the movies (to differing degrees). I just don't believe in insulting other fans because we're all fans. And the funny thing was some people made Silmarillion references and this guy didn't recognize them, so he clearly hadn't read all the books. So by some people's standards he wouldn't be a real fan either. He was just being rude and it was uncalled for.

I always equate these people with conspiracy-theory types. I once saw a documentary disproving all the 9/11 conspiracy theories, and in the documentary one of the talking heads said that it doesn't matter what evidence you provide because what these people really want is to be right and to know something others don't. Or to see something others don't. It makes them special, makes them unique. So no amount of evidence will be good enough because they're not out for the truth, despite what they say. They just need to keep feeling oppressed or in-the-know or whatever it is that's really motivating them.

This made so much sense to me, and made it clear that engaging with these people is a waste of time because it doesn't matter what you say. They have to be right. They have to be better than you. It's not about the truth at all.

So, it's good to put the evidence out there and then walk away. (I agree it can be frustrating though when you're looking for a nice place to debate and/or squee.)

Eh, to be fair in the book the dwarves really aren't fleshed out, so it's not a surprise people would gravitate to the movie characters because there's more to work with. Characters like Nori still have a lot of areas where people can fill in the blanks. Hobbit fandom is mostly movie based so not surprised people stick to movie characterization. Doesn't bother me, since it's different.

I don't have any issue with people using the movie characterization. I understand that. But I have an issue when the movie gets something fundamentally WRONG about a character. For instance, it explicitly states in UT that Thranduil does not harbor anti-Silvan feelings. That is the exact opposite of who he is.

But that crops up in a lot of fics. Same with Nori being a thief or being poor (or that he and his brothers have different fathers - that idea needs to die in a fire). Most likely, he is of the royal lineage of Durin (only Bofur, Bombur and Bifur are not, and they are likely an honor guard). I agree that he can be fleshed out further but the basis of the character that people are using goes against what Tolkien stated. That he gave so little and still PJ couldn't honor that is very frustrating to those of us who love the books.

That guy's just a douchebag.

That said - in some sense, I can kind of appreciate where he's coming from, in the sense that I'm almost entirely a book fan, and it can be really difficult and really frustrating to be critical of the movies, and to defend the books from some common criticisms that you think are wrong, without ruffling some feathers. It's legitimately difficult and frustrating and it makes it frustrating to talk about Tolkien when people are coming at it from such a different perspective. That said, that's really not an excuse for dude to be an ass about it.

The one thing that I do disagree with in your post is the bit about taking it seriously - because, I mean, again, dude is a douchebag, but I think it's worth taking LotR at least somewhat seriously. I mean, as seriously as you're willing to take art or literature or whatever you want to call it in general. And, again, taking it seriously doesn't mean and shouldn't mean being a dick about it, soooooo yeah.

See, I think there is a clear line between disliking the movies or criticizing the movies and telling other fans they are doing it wrong or are not real fans. The latter is when you are taking it too seriously in my mind because you are so intense about it you've decided that you're way of doing things is the only way and feel the need to keep the fandom free of any fan who doesn't agree with you.

I don't mean taking it too seriously in the sense of taking the books/movies too seriously. I mean in the sense of taking fandom itself too seriously and thinking of it as our own personal playground that should follow your personal rules.

I love Tolkien too, but geez... The people who only like the books and get angry when someone prefers or even likes the films have problems. Some people just can't imagine anyone feeling differently then them, and when they find someone who doesn't share their opinion they need to prove them wrong or call them stupid.

It's immature for sure. The books are my absolute favorite, but I adore the films as well and that doesn't compute for certain hardcore Tolkien fans.

I like Tolkien but I keep my distance from the fandom for this reason. I get that it's an old fandom so a lot of grudges or feelings are deep-seated in people, but it makes some people come off as kind of rabid if you don't have the the Right Opinion. And God forbid you like something in the films better than something in the books.

I think it probably depends on where you are? Because I've had no problems at all with the Tumblr Tolkien fandom. This was actually my first experience with this sort of thing.

Yeah, if I visit any areas that have an air of old fandom (I have one Facebook group that I watch that feel like that), I keep my few comments a bit on the careful side, because while I have read the books (including the Silmarillion and bits and piece in HoME), I do consider myself more of a movie fan.

The thing is, I feel I understand the movie-only fan POV a bit, because that is the sort of fan Mum is. Her brother once gave her a copy of The Hobbit way back in the 70s, but she could not get through it. In fact she made another attempt to read it after AUJ came out and managed to get as far as the troll scene, and considered that an achievement - that's how much she struggles with Tolkien's writing, even the "easy mode" of it.

And yeah, I don't really understand how people can be that serious about fandom. All I can think is some people need something to get angry over, and for an old-school Tolkienite, that is bookverse vs. movieverse.

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[ SECRET POST #3132 ]

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