fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3135 ]

[ SECRET POST #3135 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3135 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Supernatural]

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[Floraverse]

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[Star Trek: The Next Generation]

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[Bryan Cranston: Breaking Bad vs. Malcolm in the Middle]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 045 secrets from Secret Submission Post #448.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0- too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Might come across as troll, but there is literally no way to ask a question about feminism without sounding trolly, so what the hell.

Does intersectional feminism have to include work for POC males?

I don't think it *has* to. But imo POC males being seen as "lesser" since "white/male" is held up as the standard is relevant, if not necessary. Even more so if they're seen as "feminine" because they're not white, and perceived femininity is being used against them

^ the secret about jrpgs reminded me of that. "Feminine" male characters in JRPGs get so much shit for being "girly," and you should see most straight men's reaction to pretty boys in K-Pop... it's directly relevant to misogyny if the reason they're shit on is "they look like giiiiirls"

Depends on the race, though. Asian males tend to be stereotyped as feminine. Black males (at least in the US) tend to be stereotyped as hypermasculine, thuggish, and oversexed.

I think that's what they meant; it's relevant to feminism when/because femininity is the weapon used. Not because the men are POC

I think it is inaccurate to say that 'feminity is the weapon used' and it leads to inaccurate thought.

We have these ideas about race and these ideas about gender, and sometimes they get together and have fucked-up prejudice babies.

Right but the prejudice baby is still relevant; whether it should be the priority of the fight over the parent is a different topic. OP only said relevant

Re: Question about intersectional feminism

(Anonymous) - 2015-08-04 23:14 (UTC) - Expand

What do you mean work? As in employment, as in POC males need to get some more feminism into them, or as in should intersectional feminism represent POC males?

i forget where, but i read a good point about this once. how the system is set up so that white males are the pinnacle of everything because the system of conventional masculinity set certain traits as valuable, like strength and aggression and sexuality

then racism played into it and/or was used in support of it because the system placed black men as too much of all these traits and stereotyped as hypeviolent sexually dangerous people then other races like asians as too little of them and got stereotyped as feminine cowards but white men got placed as the perfect medium. How convenient for white men

so to echo the above, not sure if necessary but relevant? sure

SA

to clarify:
could you say its relevant and argue for it all being part of the same system where a certain kind of 'masculinity' dominates everything? yes
should it be a focus above other issues? no

It's not trolly, but I think it's fairly stupid, and represents the point at which the idea of intersectionality becomes meaningless.

You should work for (or at least care about the issues facing) POC males because they're human beings. But it doesn't have any intrinsic relation to feminism; it has a relationship to common humanity, of which feminism is one constituent part, but it is not a part of feminism proper.

And speaking specifically to intersectionality, no, intersectional feminism is still feminism.

Exxcept, this does not at all fit with the modern party line of "Feminism isn't just about women, you know! This men's issue you're talking about is really about feminism!"

No, it's in direct conflict with that, because I think that view is dumb and wrong

Intersectional feminism is primarily interested in issues for women, with equal emphasis on issues for WOC, gay women, and transwomen as well as, but not notably, straight white women. So it doesn't have to include stuff for POC men. But on the other hand, racism and LGBT issues are important overall, so ideally this would be included in intersectional feminism.

I think it does include it by default but it doesn't have to have POC men be a priority. I see it like linked fields? If you study chemistry, that includes learning some math, so it would be accurate to say that if you study chemistry, math is there. But studying and learning math wouldn't be the point of studying chemistry and nobody would study chemistry solely to learn math through it.

I'm not sure what intersectional feminism even means, tbh? I associate it with a few Facebook friends who constantly bring it up, but in ways that seem kind of annoying to me. Like a year ago when something good for gay marriage happened, they posted a link and a rant about how she couldn't celebrate until things were equal for black people, too. Or like how LGBT issues can only be solved by solving racism.

I never click the links so I never learn. Does it mean basically put all the social issues together and call it feminism?

In theory, it's a useful way of pointing out that (for instance) black women face issues that are distinct from the issues that either white women or black men face, and to be effective feminism needs to understand the ways that patriarchy interacts with other forms of oppression and find ways to address all those issues.

In practice, it's fucking stupid.

How?

It is used as a justification for oppression olympics.

Aaaand as someone who's seen more than enough of THAT bullshit, I still ask you, do you throw out the baby cuz the bathwater stinks?

Re: Question about intersectional feminism

(Anonymous) - 2015-08-05 18:03 (UTC) - Expand

It's like some things have more of a focus on a particular group but they're all intertwined because inequality at its heart has common motivators.

Racism ties into homophobia, absolutely.

"Racism ties into homophobia, absolutely."

How so? I'm not trying to be snide, I'm just really curious. To me they seem like generally distinct things, where someone can be homophobic but not racist, or the opposite, or be a POC and homophobic, etc.

This isn't related to homophobia but you might, for example, have guys who have friends of every race and are chill with all of them and don't discriminate but call women of a certain ugly.

That's an intersection of racism and sexism:

Sexism: reducing a woman to her looks
Racism: deciding that one race is "ugly"

And this you get a nasty intersection of racism and sexism.

Someone mentioned the example of kpop above, which could count. Imagine the same amount of misdirected homophobia thrown at Justin Bieber for being a 'fag' then imagine those same idiots assuming all asians are 'faggy' because surely they're all like the asian boybands they see. Gaaay. Asia is full of fags who like crossdressing! Why are they so gay?

I've legitimately seen this happen. It used to be all over during the days when J-rock was big.

I suppose, but I don't see how racism and homophobia are inherently tied together still. Just that they can overlap. And no one thinks "Asians are literally homosexuals" even if they are stereotypically smaller and less "macho" looking.

And then there's the question, what about homophobia in Asia then.