fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #394 ]

[ SECRET POST #394 ]

⌈ Secret Post #394 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 375 secrets from Secret Submission Post #057.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] personal attack, [ 1 ] we went through this yesterday.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, February 4th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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... what?

You got it. Supposedly, a girl "usually" has more control in the situation. Unless it's rape. Then it's special, it's the exception, right? Well, I'm saying to you that "usually" doesn't cut it at all. Neither the boy nor the girl in the relationship should be expected to shoulder a heavier responsibility regarding safe sex, and as my experience has indicated, women are "usually" the ones being coerced into unwanted intercourse. Where's that lovely "most cases but not all" degree of control now?

The boy nor the girl in the relationship should be expected to shoulder a heavier responsibility.

So quite trying to make it about gender and saying it's usually the men then.

As my experience has indicated, women are "usually" the ones being coerced into unwanted intercourse

No idea why that would be... Oh wait. Didn't you mention that you work in a WOMEN'S CENTER? Of course you're experience is going to show women as the primary victims.

Edited 2008-02-04 00:03 (UTC)

She wasn't saying that the men should be expected to carry the burden. She's replying to an argument about how the woman should be the one in control, so of course the reaction is going to be "what about the dude?" She's advocating equal responsibility and justifiably getting upset at the notion that a woman should have to shoulder all societal responsibility. A notio that is everywhere, by the way.

...how does working in a women's center invalidate her knowledge and arguments, which have been spot-on so far?

Your reply was almost impossible to plod through, so I'll just take what I can get out of that.

For one thing, contesting the view that girls usually have more control in a sexual relationship and thinking that neither party should be expected to carry the heftier weight? Are not contradictory views. It is usually the men, I do think that women are and have always had less control in the situation than men (the ideal would be equal say in the matter: this has yet to be realized), and the extent of this is so unbelievably outrageous that it necessitates the existence of places like Women's Centers in the first place.

Seriously, do you even have any idea what we do at Women's Centers? Talk to young girls who feel like they have nowhere to turn to. In many cases, because they have no say at all in their "relationships".

I didn't say anything against Women's Centers. One of my closest friends was sexually abused and I understand entirely the need for Women's Centers and how important they are.

On the other hand, two male friends of mine were also sexually abused. Call me naive/idealistic/whatever if you want, but I honestly don't think gender should be called into the situation because every case is different.

I feel like everyone here is forgetting that double standards apply to both sides and so many men never come out about being abused because they have to be macho and they should have liked it. Or maybe I'm just missing the point of this entire debate where everyone's pointing fingers and saying the exact same thing.

As Women's Centers generally work closely with the Gender and Sexuality Studies department and LGBT groups, I'd be surprised if that reality were in fact alien to me. While I perhaps should not have called into question your understanding of our mission, the fact that you insinuated, however faintly, that my position as a WC staff limits my understanding of the big picture - essentially saying that helping women has blinded me to the plight if men, so to speak - led me to respond as such.

You have to understand that, in this particular conversation, the point being contested is neither that women are the only victims of abuse, nor that men should always hold the rod of responsibility in the relationship. We are admittedly excluding many cases of differing nature, including same sex relationships and issues of familial abuse. But that doesn't matter here at least, because what I'm trying to do here (and I gather, what everyone is doing as well) is argue against the stated claim that, and I quote, "Just saying that even if he's the horniest sex-fiend on the face of the planet, in the end, I think the girl usually has more control (or lack thereof) on the situation." That, I think, put the argument into a very specific light. You wanted case by case? This is the case I'm talking about.

Sorry, I assumed that you were being biased because I was getting a really anti-male tone from your comments. Obviously this is the internet and people's tones can be entirely misinterpreted, which this obviously was a case of.

But the case that you're arguing is an opinion - and a very generalized one at that.

techn0ir is entitled to believe that the woman is generally in control just as much as you are entitled to believe the opposite. You're both basing your opinions off your experiences.

And you're both ultimately saying the same thing: That one gender or the other is usually in control. Which, as far as I'm concerned, makes both your points moot because usually is such a vague term. I honestly think gender is completely irrelevant. From my experience, control in relationships is mainly dependent upon personality. And I'm talking about in relationships, not situations of abuse because I do think those are special cases.

(Sorry if this is kind of muddled, my thoughts aren't quite translating into words properly XD)

techn0ir is entitled to hold their belief, and I am entitled to challenge it with rhetorics when I find said belief to be false. This is why arguments happen, Internet or otherwise. Of course no one can strip him/her of the right to express the opinion, the most we can do is say, "Hey, we think you're wrong and here's why."

Now, as to the issue of control, while what I ultimately wish for is equal say in the matter for both parties, I personally think that basing everything on personality is a slightly idealistic way of looking at things, and so is disregarding gender. There is some truth to the reality of the prevalence of traditional gender roles even in present day's society, and the conventions those roles establish put women in a very disadvantaged position when it comes to making these choices. Yes, we do teach our daughters to say no and respect their bodies, but exactly how much of that has to go against the long-ingrained mindset of the submissive female, we do not know.

I personally think that when it comes to safe sex, at least, both parties should be as aware as they can be, and if any one side is expected to take a bigger responsibility, already some element of abuse has entered into the equation. As the subjects of today's discussion are teenagers, I have to say again that young girls definitely have less control in most situations (yes, yes, that "usually" thing again). To impose adult standards onto adolescent relationships, and thinking that people that young always understand enough to respect the wishes of the other partner, that's highly unrealistic.

Edited 2008-02-04 01:29 (UTC)

I believe she is not stating an opinion, but is in fact making an argument, which is different.

And I believe you are missing the point.

tecnn0ir, from what I gather, argues that women should bear more responsibility for safe sex because women are primarily the ones in control of sex.

ronsard argues that both men and women ought to bear equal responsibility, even though it is often the case that men have more control over sexual situations.

See the difference?

How you cut through the whale-thick layers of my BS to the core of the issue! ♥

♥ You make a well-reasoned argument.

People should take more philosophy imho.

And to add one final point, something about the benefit of experience merits consideration. Of course it's unwise to talk about shit we don't know, and what can we possibly know more about than things with which we are personally acquainted? In this case, for example, I cannot seem understand why the fact that my arguments are based on my experience should somehow invalidate their credibility. This is experience I have gathered from various sources, ranging from my own life to my workplace, an environment directly related to the issue of contention, and finally, from my studies of W,G & S literature. I am allowed to draw my own conclusions from my experience, and I am allowed to defend their merits when doubts are being cast, and I think it is unfair to write them off pointblank as meaningless simply because they are my conclusions.

Should the other person, in this case being

techn0ir, also choose to cite evidence of their experience to act as basis for their opinion, I am willing to give those citations due consideration, much like I have taken into account your argument for the role that personality plays in deciding power balance in relationships, but beseech you still to consider the age group of the subjects.

Edited 2008-02-04 01:44 (UTC)

Hellooooo, you are my heroooooo~

NO U.

But seriously, thanks for opening the floor for discussion and then standing by your beliefs so admirably. Wanky as this entire debacle is turning out to be, I'm a bit glad F!S is housing an issue more weighty than two fictional characters sleeping together.

Re: 16

moebot.livejournal.com - 2008-02-04 02:33 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 16

kinneas.livejournal.com - 2008-02-04 02:42 (UTC) - Expand

Your responses in this thread make me very happy. I'm too late to the party to wank about the secret in my own right, really, but I'm glad some people took up the reins, haha.

If this is directed at me, well then, thank you! In truth, I'm playing it safe: there's a bigger, much more painful wankfest developing a few pages down that I cannot even muster the braincells to touch.

Yeah. And...oh god, I haven't gotten that far but nnnnh. I'm probably going to out of masochism. Then I'm going to go rant on the politics filter of my Livejournal how much I hate the "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ" argument, and specifically the argument of going "OMG YOU WERE BEING MAN-HATING" to people who...really weren't saying anything about men; they were just trying to defend women. :P

I don't know about F!S, but the OMG TEH MENZ argument gets slung around plenty whenever issues of gender come up where I go to school. Would you believe some frat boys took a picture of themselves dressed as thugs holding a sign saying "WE LOVE SLUTS." while standing in front the Women's Center, the mother organization for rape victim support, and a bunch of people actually went up in arms over the lack of a Men's Center? D:

Edited 2008-02-04 03:12 (UTC)

I...

I can believe it, but that doesn't mean it hurts me less augh.

I remember seeing that. That was Yale, wasn't it? Really infuriating and... just awful. I couldn't believe someone had done that -- while at the same time I could believe it, you know?

Crap. This shit made it that far outside the walls, huh? Yeah, I can certainly believe it, since it's not exactly uncommon here, but that doesn't make reading about it in the school paper anymore fun :)

Re: 16

likespring.livejournal.com - 2008-02-04 04:10 (UTC) - Expand

..what the fuck.

Now, to be fair, I'm pretty sure the actual frat boys in question had no clue what the hell they were doing nor what that building they were standing in front of was supposed to be, which just makes them dumb as rocks, but some upperclassmen in the "brotherhood" obviously orchestrated the prank and are shitheads for it.

Now, going to the ivygate blog and reading the insightful comments of all the wonderful intellectuals doing their virtual male posturing over the incident, that's enlightening.

Re: 16

ew-younerd.livejournal.com - 2008-02-04 04:28 (UTC) - Expand

the OMG TEH MENZ argument gets slung around plenty whenever issues of gender come up where I go to school.

It comes up lots of places. It's nearly impossible to have a conversation about women's issues without guys swinging in to bawwww about how tough they have it. And sure, men have issues too, but, uh, we were talking about women. Then they protest when we set up a safe place where we can talk without the conversation being railroaded by WHAT ABOUT THE MEN???

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