[ SECRET POST #394 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #394 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 375 secrets from Secret Submission Post #057.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 ] not!secrets, [ 1 ] not!fandom, [ 1 ] repeat, [ 1 2 ] too big, [ 1 ] personal attack, [ 1 ] we went through this yesterday.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Monday, February 4th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

The boy should abstain too, sure. But the girl gets to say no to the guy, or the guy can say no to the girl (since guys aren't the ONLY sex feinds out there).

Unlucky? The moment you have sex with a guy while you're unable to financially support yourself, well... Then you're stepping into it. Accidents happen, but can be easily prevented. If you're a 16 year old who IS financially supporting themselves, sure. But you're probably still not mentally ready for that kind of thing.

[linkeepsitreal.livejournal.com]

The thing is, if I want to have sex when I'm 16, I should be allowed to. I'm 18 now and have abstained, so it's not like I'm trying to defend myself. Sex isn't just about babies in this day and age: you can be smart about it and it can still happen. Sex is also about wanting to be with the person you love.

If I am in a committed relationship, want to make love with my boyfriend because WE LOVE EACH OTHER, and use birth control pills AND condoms and I still get pregnant? I don't see how that makes me a stupid slut.

My point being, I don't want to be judged because I am young and want to be with my boyfriend. It doesn't mean I'm not responsible, especially if I do everything I possibly can to prevent such a consequence.

Because, no. Sometimes they can't be prevented. Birth control is still not 100% effective. You can, though it's rare, get pregnant while on the pill. Condoms break, and even if they don't, they AREN'T 100% effective.

And my boyfriend can put on his own condom. I don't need to remind him.

Sorry, I just really disagree with you.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

at 16 years old, I'm sorry, but you're not mentally capable of forming a **~~LONG~LASTING~BOND~~** It rarely happens. During that period, you're usually dating around, getting a feel for what you want in a S.O. I know... one couple that has been together since highschool, and they're... oh god, so fucked up.

Also this bothers me:

"And my boyfriend can put on his own condom. I don't need to remind him."

Noo, but a guy that's really excited to have sex can forget, so you damn well better say "oh what about the condom"? If you care about your body and the possible consequences of having sex than you'd best be double checking for your good and his. Just as much as he should say "you're on the pill, right".

[linkeepsitreal.livejournal.com]

I'm not responding to that first part. You're simply passing judgment and I refuse to even dignify it with an answer.

I was not saying I don't share responsibility in birth control. I was trying to say that HE has EQUAL responsibility - it's not MY JOB ALONE. He's capable of contributing, especially if he wants to have sex. Neither of us are excused simply because we're "excited."

If I am blamed for a pregnancy because I purposefully didn't take birth control in order to get pregnant? Fine. Fair. I did that to myself.

If I get pregnant because a condom breaks? It isn't MY FAULT alone.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

I'm not passing judgement. A 16 year old is not mature enough to judge their relationships in that way.

I'm not saying it's only the womans fault. It's the guys fault too, but the woman should STILL BE PROACTIVE in making sure she doesn't get pregnant if she doesn't want a kid! If you expect a guy to put on a condom and don't say it, and he doesn't put one on because he expects you to be on BC.... I mean.... Bad ending, much?

[linkeepsitreal.livejournal.com]

Says you.

I agree with you there. Women should be proactive, and so should the man. It's both of their faults. I wasn't literally saying that I would do that, I was simply using it as a metaphor. He can put his own condom on, meaning he's a big boy and can contribute to preventing pregnancy.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

RARELY will there be a 16 year old who can. Seriously, I do know people who HAVE gotten married to their highschool sweetheart. Their realtionship is fucked, but ... there are also people out there who could do it and be happy and in love. It's just... very rare.

Also, yeah, I was just going by your example. Examples are horrible ways of getting points across but it seems we agree on that point anyway.

[linkeepsitreal.livejournal.com]

I don't believe I am mentally incapable of that depth of emotion because of my age, is I suppose what I object to. And of course there are lots of people who think they're in love when it's just good old teenage hormones, I don't dispute that. But to imply I'm not capable of it simply because of my age?

My highschool teacher met her husband in grade nine. They dated all though highschool, college, and for years afterwards. They had sex. They got married. They had a baby.

I don't think it's that rare. Not amazingly common, but not rare.

[manda-babylon.livejournal.com]

I wonder what she thinks of the whole history of the human race, where as recently as 60 years ago, women in the United States were still getting married when they were 14. I guess they weren't mature enough to judge their relationships in that way... (thanks, anyway, Grandma, I know I appreciate it!)

[jewbrat.livejournal.com]

you know, you make it sound like the person you have your first time with is going to be stuck with you forever. which isn't true in most cases, obviously.

[dev-chieftain.livejournal.com]

Okay, let's just take this aside and clarify something. What exactly do you mean by "long lasting bond"? Are you saying that a human being is incapable of the strong emotions necessary to be in "love" at the tender age of sixteen?

Setting aside the fact that theoretically you should be in love with your family platonically by this age, let's first look at this historically, and then psychologically.

Historically, people were married and set for life usually between the ages of 12-18 in Western society. People could be married and sexually active much earlier than this (as early as 9, which, despite every stupid piece of fiction ever, is the earliest age a girl can get her period. Trust me: I speak from experience.), but it was downright STRANGE and considered undesirable to wait beyond the age of, say, 20 to marry. This is not just because the lifespan of a human being varies depending on the society her or she lives in (making 20 sometimes middle-aged for people in certain unlucky points in history), but because physically, it is an enormous health risk to bear children after the age of thirty, and usually impossible by the time you are forty (thanks to menopause).

Psychologically speaking, humans develop in several quick stages early on. From 1-3, they are infantile. They tend to be developing basic behavioral patterns, and such important skills as "motor control". Memory is not a very strong part of this stage of development. Humans are at their most exploratory at this age. From about 4-7, they are "children", and while memory is still difficult to maintain, it's stronger. Children at this age group begin to learn about concepts such as lying-- the possibility that what they are told may not in fact be true. From about 9-12 they are "pre-adolescent", and while they show the more full scope of human cognition and ability that we recognize in adults, certain hormones are not necessarily being produced within them at this time, which somewhat limits their capacity for thought and emotion by comparison to their elders. It is not that they cannot EXPERIENCE these deeper cognitive processes and emotions, so much as that the experience, if it occurs, will be very difficult if not impossible for them to define. It should also be noted that the most "learning" one does is done from ages 1-5, and following that the mind is less receptive to outside input and information. From 13-25, you are completing your growth into adulthood, but psychologically speaking, 13-25 year olds are alreayd capable of the full range of thought and emotion available to humanity as we know it.

So, in short, you are completely wrong: 16 year olds are not only historically capable of forming or being forced into a long lasting bond, but fully physically and psychologically capable of forming a long lasting bond if they so choose and if fortune happens to grant them such a thing. Perhaps you and I would not be so interested in developing an emotional dependency like that, but it is FAR from impossible.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

"Historically, people were married and set for life usually between the ages of 12-18 in Western society"

Yes, but little girls were often chosen or sold off to more wealthy men for the 'good of the family'. Love was rarely a nessicary component in such relationships.

I'm fully aware of the sexually active thing, etc etc. I got my period at 9. I know.

Also, I said it RARELY HAPPENS, I didn't say impossible. There are kids out there capable of that, but they are few and far between, especially considering the amount of mental stimulation teens have these days.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you going to reply to this citing anything except personal experience? I mean, anywhere? How about some literature on old-fashioned marriages? What about the amount of mental stimulation teens have 'these days' when education is mandatory, unlike those days? Do you have any data to show that the mental stimulation is lower in these days and age? Do you have any data on teenage relationships and their stability compared to the data on adult relationships and their stability?

If you're unwiling to contribute in an intelligent and informed, educated manner, I suggest you kindly shut the fuck up.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

I HAS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN THE 1800S, TRUFAX.

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for ignoring my point in favor of my forgetting to add "or based off popular opinion instead of researching data and citing facts there too". That really helps emphasize your stance as right and well-thought-out.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Yes, but little girls were often chosen or sold off to more wealthy men for the 'good of the family'. Love was rarely a nessicary component in such relationships.

Those relationships did not make up the norm, and therefore are not representative of the history of human courtship. And I'd like to add that dev_chieftain's claim is true for a number of Eastern cultures as well. You've got generations working against you.

Frankly, I've never subscribed to the idea that some kind of soul-deep long-lasting bond is necessary before sex can even be discussed. I think that responsible sex should comprise of both parties a) knowing and trusting their partner, b) getting mutual consent, and c) being educated in and practicing safe sex. If this is going to make me a horrible parent someday in others' view, so be it, but I definitely think that a 16-year-old should be able to comply with those requirements if they applied themselves and had all the right assistance, so it's not a question of whether or not they are "mentally prepared". Mind you, unwanted pregnancy can happen regardless of how much precaution you take, but this problem is, in fact, not exclusive to teenagers.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

the fact is, kids can't even support themselves, yet theyre bringing lives into the world and burdening themseleves and those around them. It's great between consenting adults, love or not.

The bad thing is kids taking OMG LYK TRU LUV to be an excuse to have sex with someone they'll dump next week, and doing so unprotected. Adults can emotionally understand sex, and in most cases are able to financially and emotionally support themselves and a child, if one were to come into their lives.

TL;DR:

Sex is great and you don't need a 'soul deep long lasting bond', but you shouldnt use one at the age of 16 as an excuse to fuck.
you should at LEAST use protection if you can't legally or financially support yourself, god only knows you cant support a BABY.
At least an adult, in most cases, will be able to financially care for an unwanted child.

[ronsard.livejournal.com]

Okay. Several things. One, you seem to be making a lot of generalizations, and frankly I don't even understand what point you're trying to make. Obviously, in my scenario, teenagers who make their best effort to understand and practice safe sex (as they should be educated to do) are clearly not seeking to "bring new lives into the world", so why are we even talking about this? If they practice safe sex, and manage to understand the seriousness of the situation, they can cite TRU WUV and dump each other afterwards for all I care. If we're going to go by experience, then that would be my experience of growing up. By the standards of some, I'm a clearly a stupid slut; by my standards, I learned valuable lessons and grew as a person.

Furthermore, there are alternative options - not limited to abortion - for teenage parents who are incapable of supporting a family, and believe it or not, this is a major part of the sexual health movement for adolescents. And let's not forget that unplanned pregnancies can happen between consenting adults, too. Seriously, I think you'd be putting too much faith in humanity to expect all adults to emotionally understand sex, but even outside of this, accidents happen. Now I'll come off unpopular for saying this, but I personally think that instead of making teenagers fear sex like it's something horrible and taboo, we should help them to understand it; that way, they might not make so many mistakes, even as adults.

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

Because all grown up relationships end up perfectly! No one's EVER divorced, rite?

You become magically able to find your one true love the second you become 21 years old.

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

YEAH THATS TTLY WHAT I SAID BB U NO ME SO TTLY WELL.

/sarcasm

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

Okay, lemme say it directly then:

You're a fucking moron if you think young love shouldn't count because ZOMG THEY DON'T END UP TOGETHER FOREVER1!!

[tealizard.livejournal.com]

It's young love. Yeah, sure. But it's not "MY ONE TRU LOVE THAT I WILL HAVE 4EVER SO ITS OK TO HAS SEX WITH HIM BEFORE I EVEN LEAVE SCHOOOOL~"

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

Why shouldn't it be? Is it wrong that they believe they WILL be together forever even if it ends up not being that way? It doesn't make the love that they had (or, according to you, thought they had because they weren't mature enough bla bla) count any less.

[coutureable.livejournal.com]

Really? Because I will be married to the guy I had my child with at 18...

I really don't know why I'm wasting my time replying to someone so stupid, but I guess I'm trying to stamp out the fires you are making in this topic. You're not right, just give up, please.
If your ideas of sex were law we'd all be sexless, ugly, annoying people.

[coutureable.livejournal.com]

Thank you for being smart, it's obviously so hard for tealizard.

A MEMBER OF CF_HARDCORE - no wonder you are so against sex. Idiot.