[ SECRET POST #3154 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3154 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 050 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

06. http://oi60.tinypic.com/6fxzif.jpg

[fingalsanteater]

Argurably the main draw of long, slow burn fics is the payoff - the release of the reader's own tension (emotional and/or sexual) when the characters they love finally get together after 50k of teasing, pining or what have you. Fade to black or lack of sex in a fic where a reader is desiring sexual contact between the characters can be extremely unsatisfying to the brain as it diminishes the cathartic release of that tension that's been building over 50k words.

Annoying as it is, if you are going for PG in a fandom that usually goes for NC-17, make sure your emotional payoff hits the same buttons that a sexual one would. You've gotta have a satisfying climax if there's not going a physical climax. Declarations of love, kissing at just the right moment, bodily contact in the form of cuddling, etc.

Still, people shouldn't be sending you messages about the lack of sex especially if the fic is clearly labeled PG. That sucks, OP.

[ketita]

I think that payoff in general is something that a lot of authors struggle with. Ending with sex is, in a sense, the most "obvious" payoff for a shippy fic, and it also falls in with audience expectations, so there's a high chance of people being pleased by it.
If you're not making it shippy, I think it demands a lot more careful buildup and drawing out the audience's feelings.

Then again, I've had too many fics where the payoff was supposed to be the sex, and it... really didn't work out. All other issues kind of just got swept away by sex, and that was it. I hate that.
I also hate when you've got this huge buildup of issues, and then some other character waltzes in and informs the two members of the pairing that they indeed love each other / how to fix everything/ whatever, and that's it. End of conflict.

[fingalsanteater]

I also hate when you've got this huge buildup of issues, and then some other character waltzes in and informs the two members of the pairing that they indeed love each other / how to fix everything/ whatever, and that's it. End of conflict.

Oh my god, yes. I hate smarmy, all knowing friends. Match-making is okay, but those all-knowing types are just annoying.

[darkmanifest]

Then again, I've had too many fics where the payoff was supposed to be the sex, and it... really didn't work out. All other issues kind of just got swept away by sex, and that was it. I hate that.

I hate that, too. I enjoy sex as a payoff for the sexual tension, but the 1,600 nonsexual things that are wrong between two people are not going to be fixed by that.

[shadowblight]

All the yes for this thread.

Hits all explanations perfectly, thank you.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I guess I'm just much more invested in an emotional pay-off than I am in a sexual one so that's what I prefer writing (hugs, kisses, hand holding, etc. that all feel like they hold weight because the two characters haven't touched even once and things like that). I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I've been in the same fandom for years and have reached a point where it feels like I've read every sex scene it's possible to imagine and the idea of writing one is just...so dull.

My fandom is definitely VERY NC-17 oriented and most of the fics coming out these days seem to have characters having sex at every possible opportunity and I'm so burned out of the whole "emotional connection = they just want to bang 80 times in 24 hours". Sometimes I swear it just feels like everything is sexual tension without any of the emotional tension at all.

And I'm definitely not trying to say people SHOULDN'T like those things, and I totally understand wanting sexual gratification, I just hate when I think I've done a good job with my emotional build/resolution and see that someone's recced my fic with a little "**NO SEX! :(" warning, it's just very beyond me.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

OP, you've got to tag your fic very clearly if there's 50k of romantic tension in your fic, your fandom is full of NC-17, you know your fandom is full of NC-17, and then you have no sex scene.

It's kind of like false advertising. No wonder some of your readers are frustrated!

You should be glad that rec was clear and warned for the lack of sex in your fic, as going by what you're saying, you're not doing a good job yourself of adequately spelling it out. That honest rec probably saved you yet more comments complaining about the disappointing ending of your fic.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, so you think you've done a good job on the emotional build up...

do your readers think this? The ones not going "Aww, I wanted sex."

Unsolicited advice: if you have someone you trust to read your stories and critique them about the emotional build up, do it. You sound like you need it, badly.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that no one should complain. There are definitely places for long fic without sex scenes, and it's a dick thing to say your fic would've been better with a sex scene.

But I don't agree with the sentiment that a PWP can be satisfying in the same way as the sex scene in a long fic. I like the build-up of a long story to really feel the characters and be invested in them, which makes me enjoy the sex scene more. And in a lot of long stories, it's nice to see the relationship develop to that first time.

I dislike long stories that are just a series of sex scenes over and over, but my favorite kind of fic is one where there's one sex scene near the end after a long exploration of the characters' relationship.

Also, yay seal! I love seals. :)

[elaminator]

IA. I would never comment saying "Your fic would've been better if there was sex" (and if OP labeled their fic appropriately the problem is the audience for reading anyway and having unrealistic expectations), but there's a big difference between a PWP and a sex scene between two characters where there's been a massive amount of build-up and a greater emotional investment.

Now, I've read some fantastic shippy fic without sex and I don't think sex is necessary to make a fic enjoyable, but I'm also not going to lie and say it isn't something I'm interested in. To some people sex is a big deal, to some it isn't; both are fine, what's not okay is being rude to the author because things didn't play out exactly like you wanted.

[(Anonymous)]

Seriously. OP sounds like a Sheldon kind of asexual: the kind who not only doesn't enjoy sex but doesn't remotely understand why other people could enjoy it either, save for the chance to get off. Heaven forbid readers was to get heavily emotionally invested in a couple, see them through 50k+ of action and adventure and relationship build-up, and then want an equally emotionally fulfilling display of physical intimacy.

No way, sirree bob. You want people bumping uglies, you go to the PWP 800-word one-shot!

[ketita]

I was so surprised when I got a review on my 300k shippy fic saying that they were HAPPY that I hadn't included any smut scenes.
I'm sorry those people were being asshats to you.

[(Anonymous)]

I got this as well, on a(n admittedly somewhat intense) 55k adventure/romance fic. It was a very, very shippy fic, but the main pair only kissed about three times all told in between escapes and battles and kidnappings, and the secondary pair only met in the flesh for an emotional reunion at the very end. Someone commented to say they were happy there were no sex scenes, because those are often repetitive and trivial.

I think a lot of people maybe get burned by those long fics where the main pair seems to be having sex like twice a chapter for bugger all reason, and just want a change of pace? I know I have a problem with those ones.

[(Anonymous)]

I get that kind of comments frequently, but at first they were a surprise because I knew I wasn't writing what people usually want in long shippy fics.

Now I'm somehow "established" in my fandoms as someone who writes plotty fics with no smut so they're the usual thing and I'm ok with that, though now that I'm going to include one sex scene (for plot reasons) I'm nervous that my usual readers are going to be disappointed on me.

[nightscale]

I like long ship-fic regardless if there's any sex or not, so long as there's some kind of emotional pay-off between the pair by the end I'm good.

Like don't get me wrong the pair having sex after lots of tension and build-up is great but I also like it if the pay-off is them kissing and nothing more as well.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel the opposite. It seems like a waste of time to read a long fic and not get the smut. If I'm going to put the time and effort into reading (or writing) a 50K+ fic, I want there to be the whole package - good characterization, good plot, and good smut. And actually I hate reading PWPs typically. Smut does nothing for me if there isn't a story to go with it. (I don't mind reading drabbles or one-shots that are gen or shippy but not smutty, though.)

That said, no one should be leaving obnoxious comments like that, especially if the fic was tagged appropriately.

[solticisekf]

Depending on a rating readers can usually predict whether there's sex scences.

I noticed that fics with lemon are more popular, so, yeah. Any complaining under a fic should be done in conjunction with some praise, that's my belief, otherwise it's flaming. Which is evil.

[caerbannog]

Because the lead up and context around it are also enjoyable.

Think of pwp as what you go to for a quick fuck but fic where they happen to get it on is a relationship with extra layers.

[(Anonymous)]

I think as long as there is pay-off, some sort of climax, I'd be happy. Some authors seem to think that the characters having sex is the same thing, and depending on how it's written it might be but sometimes it just feels hollow. If you've got a lot of emotional build-up and it's resolved with straight-up smut, that doesn't do it for me. I'd rather have no sex in the fic at all but still have pay-off for the emotions.

And yes, long fics where it's basically one sex scene after the other are incredibly boring.

[(Anonymous)]

so, to you smut has no place in long fic? Because that is the impression that I'm getting.

Those types of reviews are frustrating. If you like what you're doing, then why do they matter? Ignore them and keep on trucking.

Just, in my experience, different stories have different purposes and how much smut is in them matches those purposes. For instance, I tend to write multiple stories with the same characters. One story will tend to be the long romance where they wait until the wedding to have sex. And then the other will be about them meeting and having sex soon after. The dynamics are different and sometimes, I just need to know what the sexual dynamic will be and don't want to wait until the long build up is over to find out. Sex can reveal things about characters that carry over to other situations.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm seeing a lot of shit in this thread. I swear there's a lot of people at F!S who hate writers and feel a huge sense of resentment and entitlement about literally anything anyone writes. :/

That, or trolls.

[(Anonymous)]

actually a lot of us are writers... but the secret is so vague that we're kind of grasping at straws to figure out what is going on so we're tossing things out and hoping something sticks.

It's a legit complaint, those types of reviews are frustrating. It's just as entitled to complain about those types of reviews because the OP seems to want specific types of reviews, as it is entitled for the fandom to say "there should be sex in your story." The public doesn't get a say in what you put out, and you don't get a say in how the public responds either.

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

I am not a huge fan of PWPs, often they feel like they don't have enough story behind them to establish why the sex is happening.

However one thing I can't help but think about the idea of a big long fic having sex as the pay-off is... why does the sex have to happen at the end? Why does it have to be the pay-off? This comes from the fact that I love long plotty adventure fics where the pay-off is unusually not the main paying having sex, but the adventure plot coming to a climax.

And even then, a long plotty adventure fic does not need a sex scene. You could have a fade-to-black, or even damn-well write the fic as a gen friendship fic!

So... TL;DR, I think sex scenes need plots to build up to them, and they don't have to be the end-game pay-off.

[(Anonymous)]

If someone makes a point of giving positive feedback on the fic as a whole, then I think it's alright for them to mention that they wish it had a sex scene. Also, if they phrase it more like, "If this had a sex scene I would love it even more than I already do," that's even better.

But if their entire comment is just "Boo, no sex," then that's just rude.