fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3154 ]

[ SECRET POST #3154 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3154 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 050 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Based off the thread the other day.

No, pirating/torrenting isn't the same as physically stealing because you're not depriving someone of anything.

And, no, I don't have an issue with people who download/torrent and then later on pay for the entertainment when they can afford it.

But pirating/torrenting is still wrong. And it's not justified. You can go ahead and do it -- I'm hardly going to try and stop you. But your moral justifications are entirely hollow excuses.

Sure, it's not ethical -- but honestly in terms of the bad shit people do, it's really really low on the immorality scale. It's like jaywalking.

I think there are fair justifications, but they're only that -- justifications for torrenting right then and there. If you buy it later, those justifications stand; if not, well, that's kinda dickish I guess.

The problem with that thread is that the OP made it very clear that while they would be very upset if someone pirated their work, they genuinely did not give a shit about anyone else's work, and there was a good dash of classism to boot. The whole thing stunk of hypocrisy and a lack of empathy and the OP as far as I can tell just wanted to feed their superiority complex.

Yeah, but some of the arguments really bothered me.

Like, it seemed almost like people were saying as though they had A RIGHT to a particular form of entertainment. As though, if you're poor, and you're on food stamps, it's okay to steal more expensive food from a grocery store or a restaurant because you don't like the selection you're being offered on food stamps.

And that's not okay to me. If you're hungry and can't get food, then of course you should steal some. But if your issue is that you don't want the food your food stamps provides you so you steal…you're a thief. Yes, grocery stores do throw out a lot of food, but that doesn't make your action okay.

There are lots of worse crimes, obviously, but some people were acting like it's classism to state this.

The problem is that physical theft, and internet piracy, are apples and oranges and it's a silly comparison to make. Nothing is being "stolen" by torrenting, the original files are still there. If you wanted to make a more accurate analogy, it'd be like you're copying the loaf of bread you want to steal. And if you're gonna do that you might as well throw some fish in and maybe get yourself some water to turn into wine.

Yeah, but the same argument could be made about grocery stores -- that they throw out tons of food that goes bad so what does it matter if someone steals some.

And they're right, in a sense -- a lot of that food WILL be thrown out and go to waste (which is a shame) and just as you point out, the original copy is still going to be there.

But that doesn't change the fact that you're taking something that doesn't belong to you because you feel entitled to it, acting in a manner that's against the law.

And that's wrong. No, it's not stealing a car. But the fact that large crimes exist doesn't magically make small crimes okay.

DA

No horse in this fight but "against the law = wrong" isn't a good way to argue

Gay marriage was against the law until two months ago. Laws often have nothing to do with morality

It's more the idea of:

"I'm entitled to take something that doesn't belong to me just because I want it." that I find morally wrong.

Yeah, I was only pointing out that adding the against the law in that sentence was taking a sort of false spin on it, because that has nothing to do with making it more or less morally correct.

Re: Unpopular Opinions

(Anonymous) - 2015-08-23 22:54 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular Opinions

caerbannog - 2015-08-23 23:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Unpopular Opinions

(Anonymous) - 2015-08-24 10:40 (UTC) - Expand

Well, you kind of missed my point -- the stealing food analogy just doesn't work, and your grocery store comparison doesn't work either. Physical items cannot be copied, unless you're Jesus. Yes, a lot of food is going to get thrown out (unless the store donates some of it) -- but until it does, it's still on store shelves.

No, nobody has a right to a particular form of entertainment. But part of the problem is that in many cases, it's impossible to get that entertainment without torrenting; worse, you often have no idea if it's going to be any good, and your money will have been wasted. This is the problem the music industry has faced for years -- an album would be put out with like ONE good song, and you had to pay $15-20 for it. It took Napster and its successors to force the industry into what we have today -- easy, accessible internet radio, the option to buy single songs for a buck, and most importantly, MUCH easier access for up and coming artists to be able to promote and distribute their music (Bandcamp has been a godsend, as has Soundcloud.)

The way I see it, if you're broke, and you don't really have a lot of viable options for entertainment beyond watching people make classist arguments on Fandom Secrets (as an example) then go ahead and pirate. It's not ethical, and no, you're not entitled to that movie or game you just torrented. But it's not that big a deal, and can go a long way towards improving one's mental health in a way "free" entertainment might not be able to.* However, it does behoove you, if you like the product, to support the creators and buy it when you can. To me, this is the fundamentally important thing when it comes to torrents, and it's an admonishment that video game cracking groups make all the time: IF YOU LIKE IT, BUY IT. Otherwise they won't make anymore! (And the cracking groups won't have anything left to crack, of course -- they do it to sharpen their skills more than anything else.)

* That's one thing OP of the old thread didn't get. Not only was a lot of "free" entertainment not actually free, but it's not like you had a guarantee of quality either.

Edited 2015-08-23 23:06 (UTC)

On the subject of video game cracking groups, I suspect a lot of the time they crack games specifically for the purposes of making mods, cheats and exporting graphics for artists. Such pursuits are not for the sole interest of people who pirate the games.

it's not like you had a guarantee of quality either.

Or availability. I've lost count of the times I've tried to watch a show on one of the free streaming sites only to be told "Sorry, this is blocked in your country!"

"Use a proxy!"
But Morally Superior OP, that means I'd get free access to content I'd otherwise had to pay for in my country and that's bad, right? :(

Re: Unpopular Opinions

(Anonymous) - 2015-08-24 12:02 (UTC) - Expand

What if your food stamps only allows you food you're allergic to?

Jaywalking is technically illegal. Driving 8km over the speed limit is technically illegal.

A lot of things are technically illegal but not really morally terrible.

I torrent a lot of movies that never made it to DVD or that aren't available in my country. I don't torrent music (especially indie/small time etc), I even shell out the extra it costs to buy import CDs/concert DVDs to support the foreign bands I love--partially because if they don't know there's a foreign fanbase they'll never come here...

I'm not going to say torrenting is 'right', but as

dethtoll said, it's kind of low on the scale of things people should be getting up in arms about too.

It's not that I think that people who torrent should be thrown in jail. Not at all.

It's that they act like they have a RIGHT to it, that I take issue with.

You don't. I'm sympathetic to people who will never get any kind of release in their country. I don't think it's wrong in that case, particularly if you can find a way to support the creator in another way (say, by supporting any shows that are available from them in your country).

But people who have terabytes and terabytes of free games and movies that they COULD legally pay for but don't because they don't want to? I think that's morally wrong. It's hardly a terrible crime or anything, but it's still wrong.

True, I think if you love something and CAN support them you should. I love the groups so I save up for their CDs and concert DVDs (even if the import prices make me cry XD).

I also torrent childhood shows that were dubbed but never got or had a very limited home release. Like Sailor Moon! Out of 88 episodes dubbed and shown, only 18 eps were ever available for home release... on VHS tapes. Any hope of a DVD-release were dashed by the timing of the license troubles.

I'm ok with torrenting because anything that costs more than $30 a season is too expensive.

I'm a Utilitarian, so I can't actually construct any arguments for why piracy would be wrong. People make all sorts of great arguments for why piracy is wrong for Kantians and virtue ethicists and so on, and they make me feel like a total shit for not opposing piracy, but I can't convert any of them into a meaningful Utilitarian argument.

Kant fucking sucks anyway.

Seconded, but he's at least better than Nietzche.

Okay, you think that.

Clearly they will. Do you have a point other than demonstrating how to be obnoxious?

That's your definition of "obnoxious"?

Welcome to the internet...

Do any of us truly have a point?

Edited 2015-08-24 02:53 (UTC)

I didn't WANT to get a torrent, but the second half of the series was never licensed in the U.S..

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