fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3159 ]

OP.

Jesus, it was SO fucked up, but that's what I loved about it too.

Exactly. It's really the worst possible scenario, Will embracing his darkness, but hey, this is a horror show. It's beyond fucked up. But at the same time, it's perfect for where these characters were going. Will has been leaning towards the darkness all season long. It's beautiful and terrible.

Jack needs to be permanently disqualified from service, lol. He makes TERRIBLE decisions. I mean, whose idea was it to bring Will back to catch Dolarhyde? Shoulda left well enough alone, Jack. And yeah, not to mention going along with the escape plan, especially after Hannibal had just screwed them over with the phone call.

So, how did you interpret the ending?

It's definitely ambiguous, with a lot left unexplained, but I also immediately thought that Hannibal and Will survived the fall and at some point in the future had called on Bedelia.

Hannibal and Will being alive after being shot and/or stabbed, losing tons of blood then surviving a long fall into the water and swimming ashore in time to get medical treatment? ...Seems unlikely, but then again so does Chilton still being alive after all the fresh hell he's went through.

I think that's just part of the fantasy logic of the show. Chilton definitely shouldn't be alive, but no one should have walked away from the bloodbath of the S2 finale, either. We've got fantasy physics with the fall and fantasy 'how much blood the human body contains' with basically everything. But hey, Hannibal seemed the least beaten up after this incident, and the guy was a surgeon, so he has the medical knowledge to treat them I suppose.

What I do wonder though, is Will's actual intent when he places his arms around Hannibal and pulls him over the edge. I mean, clearly he wanted it to happen (and Hannibal seemed to let it happen), but was he hoping or expecting they would survive or he could've let Francis kill Hannibal, or he could've shoved Hannibal off the cliff on his lonesome, but he went with him. At that point it seemed like he had accepted that no matter what he would always have a connection with Hannibal, always want something he shouldn't, and a normal life would no longer be satisfactory; he'd changed too much.

I think back to the conversation they had in Italy, about being conjoined, I think, and would either of them survive the separation. I think at this point, Will had accepted his connection with Hannibal. And I think he probably intended to die going over with him, but when he inevitably didn't, something else happened? He knew there was no going back to who he was, and that if he wasn't dead, he was someone new. Will went over the cliff with Hannibal, intending to die. An actual death, or perhaps (in effect) a death of the person he’s been to this point. Symbolically and literally, it was a fall. Not a fall from innocence, as Will lost that along time ago, but a fall from everything, perhaps. This show started with a murder that fucked Will up, and ended with a murder that fucked him up even more. His comment earlier about not being able to save himself, plus the “it’s beautiful” after they killed Dolarhyde like it was a dance they were made to do together, makes me think Will has stopped fighting. He's done fighting the darkness (because in the last season and a half, I think Will has been fighting the darkness a lot), and going over the cliff was him losing himself, whether the consequence of that was losing his 'life' or losing his 'self.' I feel like I'm deconstructing this too much, but this show sort of demands it, lol.

Also, Hannibal's face during that last scene is just...totally elated; he has everything he's ever wanted.

I know. He looked more genuinely happy than he's ever looked.

as dark and depressing as the ending was, it certainly fit the show and is almost poetic in a way. A fucked up way, but you wouldn't be watching Hannibal if you were totally uninterested in that.

It really is interesting too see a show where the good guys don't win and morals don't win, and the bad guys come out unfailingly on top. This is the perfect ending for Hannibal himself, but everyone else is completely fucked. It is a fitting ending, given that the show has always been psychological horror.

Exactly! I've seen some folks disappointed that Will didn't reject Hannibal and go back to his wife, but honestly... I just don't think that would've been a satisfying ending. Given Hannibal and Will's screwed up relationship and the history behind it, it only makes sense that it ends this way. Will has been drawn towards Hannibal from the start, and as the show has went on it's become more obvious that whatever bond is between the two of them is not something they can ignore or break, even if they want. Will has been fighting off the darkness for so long and has fallen so far... Him actually managing to walk away from Hannibal would've been hard for me to believe, given his arc this season.

(Not that I blame people for wanting a happy ending... I just don't think it had any place here.)

By the end of the season I couldn't even really feel sorry for Jack, tbh. I still want to know what's going to happen to him, but he's made so many idiotic mistakes that I feel like he's brought this upon himself; things could've been better if only he hadn't fucked up massively.

And you are of course right about the injuries! Will should've never survived season two, NO ONE probably should've, but they did. And again with Chilton... That's a whole new level of fucked up. I suppose if the wounds weren't deep that Hannibal could've treated them easily enough, once they got to safety. (And Hannibal IS talented, so as long as they can find shelter and supplies...)

You are not deconstructing this too much. This show was made for this shit; I've already read about 20 meta posts. (One of which referred to their fall as a baptism, a rebirth, and I found it to be on point. You are on the right track I think. Clearly Will is a changed man, and whether he meant to survive or not I think he did, and I also agree that he's come to terms with the fact that he can't be without Hannibal, nor would he truly want to. The Will that comes out of the water will be an entirely different Will than the one we're used to because he isn't hiding or fighting anymore.)

And to think that earlier in the episode Will was telling Hannibal it wasn't good to see him. Maybe GOOD wouldn't be the exact word, but you know you enjoyed it Will. Hannibal has become used to Will being (understandably) cold towards him, but even when the two were on friendly terms they never had anything like this. All of Hannibal's wet dreams came true, lol.

Haha, I was saying in another comment how Hannibal and Will being together is bad for everyone else. Hannibal by himself is bad enough, but with Will beside him? Ho boy. I do feel bad for anyone who's left, but at the same time everything has been building up to this moment for quite some time. (Lounds is going to be so pleased.)

OP.

I'm weirdly glad that Will chose Hannibal over Molly. Not in a romantic sense, but that there WAS a choice. It was obviously the wrong choice morally, but my point is that if Molly and Walter had died, there would be no choice, nothing for Will to walk away from. I kind of wanted him to have a choice and to make the total wrong choice. Molly's death would have been fridging and predictable, but ultimately I liked that Will chose Hannibal over everything else, because Will still had everything else waiting him, if he'd wanted it. It wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying if Molly and Walter had died and then Will went with Hannibal. I wouldn't want a Will who followed Hannibal because he had nothing left. I liked him realizing their connection and embracing the dark part of himself fully, leaving everything that he was. (Plus, someone good like Molly has to take care of the dogs! Yes, my priorities are in order.) And I do think that Will doing what's 'right' and turning his back on Hannibal would have been too... not predictable, but too universally expected in conventional story telling. You don't expect the protagonist to give into what's wrong and throw the law and morality behind him. You expect him to ultimately catch the serial killer, not run away with him.

We have so many shows (procedurals, even) where the protagonist is fighting darkness or some horrible event in their past, or trying to atone, but always manages to pull themselves back to the straight and narrow. It's interesting that this show doesn't do that. I can't even say it's like something like Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, where the main character is an anti-hero or is a bad guy for much of the narrative's framing. Will, when we start out, is firmly a mild mannered investigator with an unusual gift, a variation of the Sherlock Holmes character that many procedural main characters are, the man who can look at a room and see what no one else can. But unlike those characters or shows, this show really delves into the darkness of what seeing that much death and getting that inside the heads of the killers can do to a person. Most of the first season is Will suffering with that. And it's not even the typical man pain, where the super special protagonist is so ~tortured over things. Will just suffers, period. You can see it starting to unravel his psyche permanently. Of course, Hannibal helps with that, lol. But yeah, him giving into Hannibal and darkness makes total sense. There were several episodes in this season when I was like "he's actually going dark, isn't he? he's flirting with the darkness. that's not an act. we had an act last season, but he's really getting there now."

Hannibal has become used to Will being (understandably) cold towards him, but even when the two were on friendly terms they never had anything like this. All of Hannibal's wet dreams came true, lol.

I'm going to have to pay attention during a rewatch as to exactly when Will went from calling him "Dr. Lecter" to "Hannibal" again, since he starts out his first prison visit with "Dr. Lecter." But let's see, if season two was the bad breakup, what exactly is season three? Cold exes reconcile, lol?

Haha, I was saying in another comment how Hannibal and Will being together is bad for everyone else. Hannibal by himself is bad enough, but with Will beside him? Ho boy.

Exactly. If Will has given in, together they're probably the most dangerous team you could imagine. Hannibal Lecter is THE serial killer on a show of psycho killers, and Will's skills make him a nearly impossible to out-think. Plus, they work together beautifully. It only took them a few moments to dispatch Dolarhyde once they were working together, and both of them were severely injured and Dolarhyde was quite the badass himself.

Oh, yes, I agree; if Molly had died then Will succumbing to the darkness and going to Hannibal would mean nothing. The fact that Molly was still an option through all of this, something he could've chosen at any point is important. If Will had nothing good in his life, if he had nothing to hold onto against all the outside horrors then him following Hannibal would be predictable and not noteworthy, but that he did go with Hannibal, then protect Hannibal, and instead of trying to capture him and leave him for Jack before running back to his own sweet family, he actually wanted what he had with Hannibal more. I mean, yea, like you said, it's obviously the wrong choice, but the fact that he made it is sort of... Morbidly wonderful. It's thrilling because it's so unexpected. This is Hannibal's triumph, basically. He doesn't deserve one but he got it anyway, and it's kind of awesome.

God, yea, he had some rough times in season one. He had some rough times period, but especially then when he didn't know what was going on and Hannibal was supposed to be helping him but was only making things worse. Given all this, it's truly amazing that Will still chose Hannibal. (You mentioned his act in season two... But the thing is, at the end of the season he still tells Hannibal to leave. There is some of Will tied up in that act, but I guess even for him it's hard to tell how much is real and how much is fake. I wonder the same thing about the bit where Will says he rejected Hannibal so Hannibal would stop running. If he didn't chase, Hannibal wouldn't run. In that moment I thought Will genuinely was so upset that he wasn't thinking of his words, but considering that he was manipulating Hannibal back then is pretty interesting.)

Oh, wow, now I want to know too... That kind of change can be significant. Wonder if it happened after a major event.

They really were impressive as hell with Dolarhyde. They worked together in harmony to take him down, and this looked like a spur of the moment thing. They couldn't have know exactly what would happen, they just ran with it. If Will and Hannibal had time to prepare? Fuck.

Alright, it's getting late and I'm tired so I'll probably answer your other comment tomorrow, but I wanted to say it's been nice talking you, anon! I was hoping someone would want to discuss this in depth, and here you were; it was perfect timing. Night! (Or day, or morning, lol.)

OP.

I mean, yea, like you said, it's obviously the wrong choice, but the fact that he made it is sort of... Morbidly wonderful. It's thrilling because it's so unexpected. This is Hannibal's triumph, basically. He doesn't deserve one but he got it anyway, and it's kind of awesome.

It is Hannibal's triumph. He's basically Satan, and he's done horrors to every character in the show including Will, but he wins in the end. He, almost impossibly, gets what he wants. Though not that I think that means Will is a blind follower or anything, or that everything has been beaten out of him and this is what he's left with. Like we've said, Will has had darkness for a while, and whatever life he's going to have with Hannibal from now on, I can't imagine he'll be anything but an active participant. Hannibal might be getting what he wants, but Will has walked into this with his eyes waaaaaay open, and by choosing it, it means he wants it, too.

You mentioned his act in season two... But the thing is, at the end of the season he still tells Hannibal to leave. There is some of Will tied up in that act, but I guess even for him it's hard to tell how much is real and how much is fake.

I think that's it. Will's act in S2 to lure Hannibal in started to blur the lines in his own mind. Maybe because being like Hannibal was so easy for him. Will's actions in the latter part of S2 might have started as an act, but it definitely ended with him conflicted enough to want Hannibal free. But in S3, there were parts where I really felt like he was skirting darkness for real, even though he seemed to pull back each time. These were times that he was talking to other people, not Hannibal, and so it didn't make sense for it to be an act (and we had already 'been there done that' on the act), like Will's confrontations with Pazzi, or his manipulation of Chiyoh, or even his moping in Hannibal's kitchen and conversation with Alana, or admitting to Jack that he wanted to go with Hannibal.

I wonder the same thing about the bit where Will says he rejected Hannibal so Hannibal would stop running. If he didn't chase, Hannibal wouldn't run. In that moment I thought Will genuinely was so upset that he wasn't thinking of his words, but considering that he was manipulating Hannibal back then is pretty interesting.

It is interesting. I wonder how much of it was Will manipulating Hannibal at the time, and how much of it was him just throwing out a 'mic drop,' as it were. After they escaped from Mason's farm, I thought Will's words were pretty genuine. He had given up on wanting Hannibal dead, and he didn't appear to care about catching him. He just wanted him gone, and said as much. I found Hannibal then turning himself in to be a real 'fuck you' to Will. 'Don't want to think about me or know where I am? I'll show you, etc.' But if Will did that, knowing that Hannibal would turn himself in then, I'm not sure what to think. Will's phrasing of 'if I rejected you' has a romantic connotation, but only last episode did he really consider (vocally, at least) that Hannibal could be in love with him. But if he really did 100% reject Hannibal so Hannibal would turn himself in, that on some level points out Will's words about not wanting to know where Hannibal was as a lie, since the capture and trial and media around Hannibal Lecter were bound to be everywhere one looked for a while, not to mention the fact that Will would definitely always know where he was, which means that he did, even subconsciously, intend to go find him again at some point.

They really were impressive as hell with Dolarhyde. They worked together in harmony to take him down, and this looked like a spur of the moment thing. They couldn't have know exactly what would happen, they just ran with it. If Will and Hannibal had time to prepare? Fuck.

Yeah. They just function as a unit, even when there's no time for planning, or even thinking. They were moving as one, almost on instinct, in perfect unison deadly with each other.

but I wanted to say it's been nice talking you, anon! I was hoping someone would want to discuss this in depth, and here you were; it was perfect timing.

Ditto! I am still waiting for the rest of the (American) internet to see the episode, but I just had to talk about it somewhere!

I agree, I think Will is smart enough to realize what choice he's made. I'm thinking of the dude he strung up earlier in the season and his actions with Chilton; he's not innocent, and he's already experienced some notion of what direction his darkness can take him in if he isn't careful. Some people still believe Will was trying to kill Hannibal and that if the two survive he'll go back to trying to kill Hannibal or reject his feelings, but that's not the vibe I got from Will.

Exactly! There would be no reason for Will to play up his desire to go with Hannibal or his frankly disturbing longing for him to others; it just made him look more mad and screwed up. He could've tried to forget Hannibal, but instead his first instinct was to chase him, and try to understand him. He became too tied up in Hannibal.

Being a shipper I admit the love comment came to mind; if Will was aware of how much a rejection would hurt Hannibal, how the hell didn't he realize Hannibal was in love with him? Hannibal's feelings for him are so fucked up and complex though... Maybe he never put a name to it. (That is, if you consider Bedelia to be correct. I personally think she is, even if Hannibal's idea of love is obviously an entirely different sort than the rest of humanity's, lol.) I think the idea that Will was so tired and done at that point that he wanted to throw in the towel holds some weight. Even feeling like that, I think it's possible that he truly didn't wish to lose sight of Hannibal forever, even if he wouldn't admit such a thing, so Hannibal turning himself in solved several of his problems.

They were so brutal! Predators, the both of them. For Hannibal that's nothing new, but the extent of Will's involvement just highlights how far he's come.

Me too, yea! Hopefully we'll even have some secrets about it soon. I can't wait to see everyone's reactions.

OP.

Some people still believe Will was trying to kill Hannibal and that if the two survive he'll go back to trying to kill Hannibal or reject his feelings, but that's not the vibe I got from Will.

I agree that he was trying to kill Hannibal, kill them both. But I don't think there's any coming back from going over that cliff for Will. I think Will went over the cliff because he had accepted Hannibal's feelings, as well as his own. And I just think that after that, after they survived, Will was just done, and just gave into it. I think there was no coming back from killing Dolarhyde for Will.

He could've tried to forget Hannibal, but instead his first instinct was to chase him, and try to understand him.

And Hannibal definitely knew Will would show up in Europe at some point, knew Will would come after him.

I think it's possible that he truly didn't wish to lose sight of Hannibal forever, even if he wouldn't admit such a thing, so Hannibal turning himself in solved several of his problems.

Yeah. Basically, ever since the season 2 finale, Will can't decide whether he wants to kiss Hannibal or kill him (even if you don't take 'kiss' literally here). He can never seem to fully commit to either, and knowing what I know now, S3 will be fun to rewatch as I pay attention to Will's continual shifts. Because he swings back and forth a lot, which was actually a complaint I had earlier in the season, but knowing how much he was fighting inside himself, it now makes a lot more sense.

I agree that he was trying to kill Hannibal, kill them both.

That would surely be in character for Will (and would parallel with the "Can't live with him, can't live without him" line) but I think I'm so far gone for the idea of dark!Will that I actually want to believe Will wanted to live. Like, intellectually he knew Hannibal was an absolute monster, and what he was beginning to enjoy was going to set him on the same path, but he embraced it. Even if he did want to kill them both though, the fact that he surely survives (I'm sticking to that, lol) and will follow Hannibal thereafter makes me perversely happy.

God, the 'heart' scene. (Where Hannibal leaves Will that 'valentine'.) Hannibal is such a drama queen.

Because he swings back and forth a lot, which was actually a complaint I had earlier in the season

I know this can be frustrating, but that's one of the things I've liked best about Hannibal and Will's relationship. Will has such incredible difficulty accepting that he feels the way he does about Hannibal (however you interpret that; he's obviously close to him, fascinated by him and I'd dare say he's even smitten with him) and it's delicious. Fucked up, but delicious. (Because Will know better but can't help it.)

OP.

but I think I'm so far gone for the idea of dark!Will that I actually want to believe Will wanted to live

Maybe Will was unsure what he wanted. Maybe before they went over the cliff, he thought something like 'one way or the other, this is it.' If he died, fine. If he survived, fine. But it would be the death of 'good Will' no matter what. That would be a very Hannibal thing to do (like flipping a coin on whether to revive Bella or not). Take a plunge and embrace whatever the result is: death or rebirth.

This is a nice, fitting headcanon. I could be content with that.

Though I also think the fight with Dolarhyde was over the second Hannibal got a sharp object in his hand. I mean, this is the man who brought a knife to a gunfight (in the kitchen with Jack) and WON.

Mads is absolutely terrifying, holy shit. Him picking up the knife and ramming into the pantry door over and over again is a sight I'll never forget. Physically, he's a big man; he's imposing enough in that sense, but when you add in how calculated and cold he is as Hannibal... It's otherworldly.

OP.

Though thinking of Freddie and the world at large, I wonder if they think Hannibal and Will are dead, or if Hannibal and Will have been making a name for themselves.

It could be both! I bet some people will be convinced that they've escaped, and will be watching the news closely for crimes that could've been perpetuated by them. You know how Alana and Chilton say Hannibal has fans, and look at what happened with Dolarhyde. Given Freddie's murder husbands article I think she'll have fun either way.

Or if they're just like murder shadows that could be Hannibal and Will, but no one knows for sure.

Murder shadows?.. Er, like copycat killers or something? Which part was this in reference too?

Oh, I just mean that no one will have proof that they're alive, and they'll never be seen, and they won't leave any evidence that fits Hannibals previous killings, but that sometimes there will be murders that COULD have been them but no one knows for sure. Especially since Hannibal only left evidence when he wanted to get attention, and mostly eats the evidence anyway. Now that he has Will he doesn't really need attention. They'll be like urban legends and if you get proof that they live it's too late for you.

Ooo, yes, urban legends! I like that. And of course with Will by his side leaving evidence isn't necessary. Hannibal doesn't need to show off now; if they were captured they would be separated, and that's the last thing Hannibal wants after waiting so long for Will to accept and join him.

Exactly! Hannibal might play games with his own incarceration, but having Will taken from him now is something he wouldn't risk. And you know Hannibal is capable of killing without leaving evidence. He didn't kill as the Chesapeake Ripper for two years, but you know he was killing people then. He just wasn't showing off. Keeping with the near-mystical, dream logic tone of the show, Will and Hannibal would just drop off the radar completely, only perhaps leaving a hint of their existence in an unsolved murder before disappearing into the darkness again.

God, you've made me want fanfic of this very nature so badly.

I've never read fanfic for this show, but I'm almost driven to try now.

You should! I certainly will be, at least.

Are you not a fic writer? You have a way with words; I would've assumed you were. At the very least you'd make excellent meta posts.

I am a fic writer, just not for Hannibal. Though most of my fic tends to be dialogue heavy, and not very introspective.

But few shows bring out the introspective in me like Hannibal does. I've never been big on meta and sitting down and typing out some whole long thing, but I will go back and forth and discuss the fuck out of something.

Ah, that's like me. (Not the writing, I can't do that, but I love discussing media and Hannibal in particular is the kind of show that encourages deep thought, lol. It's so damn complex too that it keeps you guessing!)

Right now I mainly write for Sherlock, though I used to write for Supernatural.

[ SECRET POST #3159 ]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

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Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]