[ SECRET POST #3159 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3159 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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02.
[Knights Errant]


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03.
[HeadOn]


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06. [SPOILERS for Tales of the Abyss]



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07. [WARNING for rape]



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08. [WARNING for sexual assault/harassment]



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09. [WARNING for child sexual abuse]


















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Yea! It was indeed something; I found myself yelling in horror and shock a couple of times, lol.

Jesus, it was SO fucked up, but that's what I loved about it too.

Firstly: poor Reba! I'm super glad she survived though, because for a second I wasn't sure.

I'm also pleased that Alana and Margot seemed to get away...at least for now. (Though, as much as I like Alana, Chilton was right; she wasn't exactly faultless in the whole Red Dragon/Chilton incident.)

There were a few things I had issue with: like Jack actually going along with the plan to let Hannibal 'fake' escape after all the shit he's done, and involving Will after Will personally told him, "I wanted to run away with him." Nobody thought to say no to this shit? (Jack's getting fired, right? How can he not, lmao.) Bedelia had the right reaction. (Though...why didn't she run? Did she run, and was later caught? Bedelia is no saint either, but I still felt sorry for her. And creeped out. Very creeped out.)

So, how did you interpret the ending?

It's ambiguous for sure and I could see it making sense several ways, but I believe the most 'straight-forward' approach to be the true one; that Hannibal and Will are still alive, and they've come for Bedelia.

That said, Hannibal and Will being alive after being shot and/or stabbed, losing tons of blood then surviving a long fall into the water and swimming ashore in time to get medical treatment? ...Seems unlikely, but then again so does Chilton still being alive after all the fresh hell he's went through. I guess it's just one of those things you have to accept.

What I do wonder though, is Will's actual intent when he places his arms around Hannibal and pulls him over the edge. I mean, clearly he wanted it to happen (and Hannibal seemed to let it happen), but was he hoping or expecting they would survive (they did exam the cliff rather closely, and he did sound like he was planning ahead in the scene with Bedelia), or did he even want to? I guess in the grand scheme of things it isn't awfully important; he could've refused to go with Hannibal after the ambush (did Will tip Francis off about where they would be, I wonder?), or he could've let Francis kill Hannibal, or he could've shoved Hannibal off the cliff on his lonesome, but he went with him. At that point it seemed like he had accepted that no matter what he would always have a connection with Hannibal, always want something he shouldn't, and a normal life would no longer be satisfactory; he'd changed too much.

Again, what was that scene with Bedelia and Will (where he 'warns' her about Hannibal escaping)? I suppose it was meant to be equal parts warning and threat; he freaked me out in that scene. I think even if he wasn't sure about his future actions at that point, he wanted to see Bedelia suffer.

Also, Hannibal's face during that last scene is just...totally elated; he has everything he's ever wanted. It's so screwed up to see them both happy after brutally murdering a man. (Not exactly a nice man, mind.)

A part of me is sad that Hannibal won because I really did wish the best for Will ("Somebody please help Will Graham" seems so long ago, now), but this did seem inevitable; as dark and depressing as the ending was, it certainly fit the show and is almost poetic in a way. A fucked up way, but you wouldn't be watching Hannibal if you were totally uninterested in that.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

Agree with everything you said.

About the ending:
I interpreted that Will and Hannibal planned their escape. Remember when they were discussing that cliff? Remember Dolarhyde's camera? I think that after Dolarhyde and Will went outside, Hannibal had just enough time to position the camera in a way that would let Jack see the evidence of what went down.

More importantly, when Will and Hannibal first arrive at the house, it's light outside. When we next see them, it's very dark outside. Clearly they were doing something during that time. Like, oh, planning an escape. (Or maybe they were fucking. Go crazy, fangirls and fanboys.)

Since the show was meant to continue, I'm 100% sure about Hannibal surviving. Don't know about Will. :/ Even if he's dead, it's a vast improvement to the book, where Will ends up a lonely, unloved, disfigured drunk.

I don't think Bedelia cut her own leg. She's clearly on drugs and terrified. She could never operate on herself in a state like that. Plus she hid the fork.
Hannibal obviously did the cooking, and there are three chairs at the table. I'm not sure who the third guest is supposed to be (Will? Chiyo? Alana?). Also I might be wrong, but it looked like the table was set for four. Someone in a wheelchair maybe? (Chilton or Gideon?)

As for Will's hug, I think it was him just finally coming to terms with his own feelings re: Hannibal and accepting Hannibal's gift.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

See, I wondered...

I remembered that the camera was on, but I also knew it had been pointed at Hannibal (so unless Hannibal deliberately repositioned it, it wouldn't have captured their fall; I suppose he could have, though!).

Also, the way Will watched Hannibal and Francis as he was sipping his wine... for a moment it looked like he was conflicted, but I also don't see how he couldn't have made up his mind by that point. (Maybe he just had a brief second of pause, or was nervous because he planned to attack Francis but wanted to do so at the right moment.) That entire scene with Bedelia seemed so suspect, and then there was, "I don't know if I can save myself. Maybe that's just fine." The look on his face, the sound of his voice...it seemed like he had come to terms with the fact that he's not the same person; that Hannibal has permanently marked him and he could finally embrace it.

HOWEVER, even if the camera didn't catch their fall, they sure as hell bleed all over that cliff, so after the police matched their blood to the scene they should come to the conclusion that they both went over (and possibly died). They might still search for them, but I would think if they're alive they would have time to flee.

Haha, I feel like Hannibal's sheer happiness and bliss at being close to Will the second before they go over the cliff looks so touch starved that I can't imagine them already having fucked. Planning an escape makes more sense!

And IA, Hannibal survived for sure. (Though I'm 100% sure Will was supposed to as well because Brian mentioned season four exploring a vastly different dynamic with Hannibal and Will than what audiences are used to. Unless Hannibal was supposed to hallucinate Will for the entire season, I definitely think he's alive.)

See, I've seen people say that maybe Bedelia snapped and amputated herself, but that seems unlikely even for this show. How would she have prettied herself up, set the table, then cut and cooked her leg, etc (unless she had someone else helping her, but Bedelia was so intent on surviving and outsmarting Hannibal that I believe there's no way she would hurt herself in that way; if she did want to try cannibalism again, she would choose someone else to eat. God, this is a fucked up conversation. But yes, she was scared and drugged, and I'm sure when she hid that fork it was to use as a weapon.)

...On a lighter note (lmao, what the shit am I saying), if it was her doing then why isn't there anything on her plate?! Clearly someone else was going to serve her. (WHAT THE SHIT IS THIS CONVERSATION)

I think I only saw three place settings. NGL, I assumed it was for Will. I still think Will was in on this; he's come a long, dark way since the show's beginning. He DID say "This is my becoming", and with the whole theme of "change" it makes sense that after accepting Hannibal completely they would go to...celebrate that.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

OP.

That entire scene with Bedelia seemed so suspect, and then there was, "I don't know if I can save myself. Maybe that's just fine." The look on his face, the sound of his voice...it seemed like he had come to terms with the fact that he's not the same person

Yeah, there is that. And I think it's Will leading up to what he feels is coming. For me, the defining moment of Change With No Return was the moment after Hannibal had delivered the second axe strike to Dolarhyde, and he and Will are circling Dolarhyde, and this look passes between them, and it's like Will goes from fighting for survival to finding pleasure in it.

Though I'm 100% sure Will was supposed to as well because Brian mentioned season four exploring a vastly different dynamic with Hannibal and Will than what audiences are used to.

While part of me would LOVE to see S4 with Hannibal and Will totally being evil together, the other part of me is glad this is the end, because I just want to imagine them out there, with no coming back around on Will's part or ending up in jail on either of their parts. Like, I'd be too afraid that S4 would try to restore the status quo by the end, but the status is not quo. It should never be quo again. I honestly don't know how Clarice could fit into this universe at this point, as Will has basically got her book ending. Though it makes a hell of a lot more sense for him here than it make for Clarice in the book, IMO.

See, I've seen people say that maybe Bedelia snapped and amputated herself, but that seems unlikely even for this show. How would she have prettied herself up, set the table, then cut and cooked her leg, etc

Yeah. Plus, yeah, who would serve her, and the meat on the table was still steaming, like it was just put there. Not to mention that we the audience know this is exactly what he did to Gideon, but I don't think she would know that, so why would she do it exactly like that? And you have to be a practiced chef to make food look that good; I mean, that's a table layout that you can't pull off your first time cooking, lol. And she looked drugged, and there was no wheelchair or walking device anywhere near her chair. It seems pretty clear that she was put there. Even on this show, I don't know how she could have done that to herself, or WHY. She's even called herself a survivor in an earlier season. She would fight as hard as she could to live, she wouldn't give up and offer herself on a plate. Honestly, this theory just seems like an excuse to think anything other than that Will and Hannibal survived and are now killing people together.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Hannibal had delivered the second axe strike to Dolarhyde, and he and Will are circling Dolarhyde, and this look passes between them

Ooo, yes, that look! I didn't think of it exactly that way, but I did believe that in that moment Hannibal and Will shared something, and it urged Will on. What you said makes perfect sense. (Especially considering Will's "It's beautiful" afterward.)

I haven't read the books (though now I sort of feel like I should; doubt I will though, given how flaky I am with trying new things) but I have heard that Will got some of what probably would've been Clarice's scenes, had she been introduced. This is just as well for me. I feel like Brian spent so long building up Hannibal and Will that even if there was a season 4, Clarice probably wouldn't appear. (And if she did, her role would probably be significantly changed.) However, I doubt we'll get a season 4 regardless. I'm with you on this; I like the ending as is. Seeing evil!Will WOULD be quite fascinating, but at the same time I like how open-ended the finale was. This show was so damn dark, and to end this way with Hannibal and Will teaming up to become an almost unstoppable force...it's bleak, but bleak in a way that works. And is kind of exciting, as it is depressing.

Yeaaaaaaaaa, the Gideon thing is telling too. Plus, she might know how to cook, but we don't know if she has that kind of skill. Even if she does she's clearly drugged or out of sorts and probably wouldn't have been able to get herself back in her chair after setting the table. (Like you said, without assistance.) And for her to go to all that trouble to escape Hannibal earlier in the season, and hell, for her to freak out earlier in the episode at the thought of Hannibal coming for her...it just doesn't add up. Even if she could somehow manage all of that, there isn't any reason for her to. (And again with the knife she takes from the table to set in her lap. There's nothing on her plate, why wouldn't she have anything on her plate? Why else would she be hiding a knife while looking freaked out?)

I know some people are super upset at the thought of Will going dark-side, but Will has been on this path for a long time. There's def been hints, he's just now crossing the finish line, lol.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

OP.

I haven't read the books either, but I've seen the movies, and I know the differences between the Hannibal movie and the Hannibal book (which sounds like complete crack) regarding Clarice's story ending.

I'm with you on this; I like the ending as is. Seeing evil!Will WOULD be quite fascinating, but at the same time I like how open-ended the finale was.

It's amazing how much it felt like a series finale. Fuller has said (probably based on his other TV experience, lol) that he's written each season so that the finale could work as a series finale if they didn't get renewed, but I never felt this sense of completion with S1 or S2 finales. I really don't need any more. Sure, seeing how they got from the cliff to calling on Bedelia would be interesting, but it didn't leave me with all the questions that the S2 finale did, for instance. Or the S1 finale, where I was desperate to see where it went from there.

Plus, she might know how to cook, but we don't know if she has that kind of skill.

Few people do, that aren't chefs by profession. When Hannibal cooks, it's an event! :)

And for her to go to all that trouble to escape Hannibal earlier in the season, and hell, for her to freak out earlier in the episode at the thought of Hannibal coming for her...it just doesn't add up.

This, basically. She was pissed and terrified when Will told her of the plan of letting Hannibal escape. It makes no sense for her to do this to herself, and I don't think she physically or practically could.

I know some people are super upset at the thought of Will going dark-side, but Will has been on this path for a long time. There's def been hints, he's just now crossing the finish line, lol.

Despite all of the dark hints this season, I really never expected this. Every time Will seemed about to come around to Hannibal's view, or seem like he regretted not leaving with Hannibal in S2, it was followed up with him attempting to murder Hannibal. So I was kind of like, 'he's acting dark, but he can't quite seem to get there.' Well, he finally got there. I said before the finale that it would be great if at some hypothetical point in the future seasons we'll never get, that Will should get Clarice's ending, because it would be coming full circle. I never expected that THIS season would end like that, but I'm thrilled that it did.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Poor Brian, he's used to cancelation by this point. I've heard that bit about him wanting each finale to be satisfactory but agree that s1 and s2 wouldn't have been without a continuation. I still think they were incredible season finales, but they left me wanting more. This felt final in a way the others episodes didn't, and left me with a clear picture of Hannibal and Will's fucked up future. I definitely wouldn't mind hearing a bit more about Brian's ideas for s4 (And hope he does discuss them at some point), but if it doesn't get filmed I'll be fine.

I checked the tumblr tag again this morning and so many people are still on the “Bedelia did this to herself" train. Idgi. Even if she assumed Hannibal was coming for her and wanted to attempt to placate him by offering him her leg, I don't think it's possible. How would she know when he was coming? What if she cut her leg off and Hannibal showed up a month later? Her meat wouldn't stay good for that long... She would have to sacrifice something else. As unlikely as surviving the fall seems it still seems more plausible to me than that theory.

I can see why you would feel that way, because Will flirted with darkness for a long time but ultimately didn't want to let it get the best of him. I wasn't entirely sure how the season would end, but after hearing Brian's comments about next season I assumed this MIGHT happen. Had Will simply tried to shank Hannibal again it would've been repetitive and disappointing, lol. I'm glad the show didn't “play it safe".

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

OP.

This felt final in a way the others episodes didn't, and left me with a clear picture of Hannibal and Will's fucked up future.

It did feel final (because of the 'end of a journey' aspect), and at the same time felt very open ended. Will has embraced the darkness and joined Hannibal, but without further seasons, I'm free to imagine whatever reign of elegant terror I want for them.

I checked the tumblr tag again this morning and so many people are still on the “Bedelia did this to herself" train. Idgi.

Yeah, I don't know. I never would have even considered that as a possibility from viewing the scene. It doesn't make sense on so many levels. And I don't think 'she went crazy and that's why she did it even if it doesn't make sense' really works, either. If living with Hannibal for eight months didn't drive her to madness, I don't think she's going to fall into it three years later just because he escapes.

And yeah, surviving the fall is unlikely, but this show does that, and obviously if there were a S4, this was still going to be the finale, so in that case, they would have had to survive. But I don't know how to read that last scene in any other way than that they did survive and had come for her. If they had just gone over the cliff, the end, it would be more debatable.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

Re: Bedelia: Thought you would appreciate this, if you haven't seen it already.
https://twitter.com/mutzko/status/637822604481425408

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

I did, but I'm glad to see it again! (And pleased you thought of me! Thanks!)

Did you also see the art of the meal/table settings? It both pointed out that Hannibal was the cook (Which... Obvious enough to us) and that Bedelia was given oysters again, lol. Since Fuller also made a point to say Will and Hannibal are both alive in interviews and that there are three table settings I think it's as good as canon that Will is joining them at dinner. I guess the only thing debatable is if he wants to (Since Fuller did say the cliff was a last ditch effort by Will to save himself, since he did indeed want to join Hannibal and knew their survival would equal losing himself to Hannibal/the darkness completely) or if Hannibal is forcing him too.

Unless we get another season and it shows us otherwise, I'm going to believe since his attempt at killing them failed, he's willingly participating.

I'm glad he discussed all this though, so that people realize Bedelia wasn't cutting herself.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

I watched the last few seconds several times, and while it looks like there could be four place settings, there's never a totally clear shot. There do seem to be two glasses (one for wine, one for water) on the empty side of the table, but I don't think anyone in a wheelchair is left alive (Chilton, maybe, but--for some reason, I don't see Hannibal inviting anyone else to this dinner). In my mind, if there is another place setting, it's for Abigail, because she should have been there with them. If Hannibal sometimes drops teacups to see if they come together, he probably puts out place settings for dead surrogate-sisters to see if they show up.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

OP.

Jesus, it was SO fucked up, but that's what I loved about it too.

Exactly. It's really the worst possible scenario, Will embracing his darkness, but hey, this is a horror show. It's beyond fucked up. But at the same time, it's perfect for where these characters were going. Will has been leaning towards the darkness all season long. It's beautiful and terrible.

Jack needs to be permanently disqualified from service, lol. He makes TERRIBLE decisions. I mean, whose idea was it to bring Will back to catch Dolarhyde? Shoulda left well enough alone, Jack. And yeah, not to mention going along with the escape plan, especially after Hannibal had just screwed them over with the phone call.

So, how did you interpret the ending?

It's definitely ambiguous, with a lot left unexplained, but I also immediately thought that Hannibal and Will survived the fall and at some point in the future had called on Bedelia.

Hannibal and Will being alive after being shot and/or stabbed, losing tons of blood then surviving a long fall into the water and swimming ashore in time to get medical treatment? ...Seems unlikely, but then again so does Chilton still being alive after all the fresh hell he's went through.

I think that's just part of the fantasy logic of the show. Chilton definitely shouldn't be alive, but no one should have walked away from the bloodbath of the S2 finale, either. We've got fantasy physics with the fall and fantasy 'how much blood the human body contains' with basically everything. But hey, Hannibal seemed the least beaten up after this incident, and the guy was a surgeon, so he has the medical knowledge to treat them I suppose.

What I do wonder though, is Will's actual intent when he places his arms around Hannibal and pulls him over the edge. I mean, clearly he wanted it to happen (and Hannibal seemed to let it happen), but was he hoping or expecting they would survive or he could've let Francis kill Hannibal, or he could've shoved Hannibal off the cliff on his lonesome, but he went with him. At that point it seemed like he had accepted that no matter what he would always have a connection with Hannibal, always want something he shouldn't, and a normal life would no longer be satisfactory; he'd changed too much.

I think back to the conversation they had in Italy, about being conjoined, I think, and would either of them survive the separation. I think at this point, Will had accepted his connection with Hannibal. And I think he probably intended to die going over with him, but when he inevitably didn't, something else happened? He knew there was no going back to who he was, and that if he wasn't dead, he was someone new. Will went over the cliff with Hannibal, intending to die. An actual death, or perhaps (in effect) a death of the person he’s been to this point. Symbolically and literally, it was a fall. Not a fall from innocence, as Will lost that along time ago, but a fall from everything, perhaps. This show started with a murder that fucked Will up, and ended with a murder that fucked him up even more. His comment earlier about not being able to save himself, plus the “it’s beautiful” after they killed Dolarhyde like it was a dance they were made to do together, makes me think Will has stopped fighting. He's done fighting the darkness (because in the last season and a half, I think Will has been fighting the darkness a lot), and going over the cliff was him losing himself, whether the consequence of that was losing his 'life' or losing his 'self.' I feel like I'm deconstructing this too much, but this show sort of demands it, lol.

Also, Hannibal's face during that last scene is just...totally elated; he has everything he's ever wanted.

I know. He looked more genuinely happy than he's ever looked.

as dark and depressing as the ending was, it certainly fit the show and is almost poetic in a way. A fucked up way, but you wouldn't be watching Hannibal if you were totally uninterested in that.

It really is interesting too see a show where the good guys don't win and morals don't win, and the bad guys come out unfailingly on top. This is the perfect ending for Hannibal himself, but everyone else is completely fucked. It is a fitting ending, given that the show has always been psychological horror.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Exactly! I've seen some folks disappointed that Will didn't reject Hannibal and go back to his wife, but honestly... I just don't think that would've been a satisfying ending. Given Hannibal and Will's screwed up relationship and the history behind it, it only makes sense that it ends this way. Will has been drawn towards Hannibal from the start, and as the show has went on it's become more obvious that whatever bond is between the two of them is not something they can ignore or break, even if they want. Will has been fighting off the darkness for so long and has fallen so far... Him actually managing to walk away from Hannibal would've been hard for me to believe, given his arc this season.

(Not that I blame people for wanting a happy ending... I just don't think it had any place here.)

By the end of the season I couldn't even really feel sorry for Jack, tbh. I still want to know what's going to happen to him, but he's made so many idiotic mistakes that I feel like he's brought this upon himself; things could've been better if only he hadn't fucked up massively.

And you are of course right about the injuries! Will should've never survived season two, NO ONE probably should've, but they did. And again with Chilton... That's a whole new level of fucked up. I suppose if the wounds weren't deep that Hannibal could've treated them easily enough, once they got to safety. (And Hannibal IS talented, so as long as they can find shelter and supplies...)

You are not deconstructing this too much. This show was made for this shit; I've already read about 20 meta posts. (One of which referred to their fall as a baptism, a rebirth, and I found it to be on point. You are on the right track I think. Clearly Will is a changed man, and whether he meant to survive or not I think he did, and I also agree that he's come to terms with the fact that he can't be without Hannibal, nor would he truly want to. The Will that comes out of the water will be an entirely different Will than the one we're used to because he isn't hiding or fighting anymore.)

And to think that earlier in the episode Will was telling Hannibal it wasn't good to see him. Maybe GOOD wouldn't be the exact word, but you know you enjoyed it Will. Hannibal has become used to Will being (understandably) cold towards him, but even when the two were on friendly terms they never had anything like this. All of Hannibal's wet dreams came true, lol.

Haha, I was saying in another comment how Hannibal and Will being together is bad for everyone else. Hannibal by himself is bad enough, but with Will beside him? Ho boy. I do feel bad for anyone who's left, but at the same time everything has been building up to this moment for quite some time. (Lounds is going to be so pleased.)

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

OP.

I'm weirdly glad that Will chose Hannibal over Molly. Not in a romantic sense, but that there WAS a choice. It was obviously the wrong choice morally, but my point is that if Molly and Walter had died, there would be no choice, nothing for Will to walk away from. I kind of wanted him to have a choice and to make the total wrong choice. Molly's death would have been fridging and predictable, but ultimately I liked that Will chose Hannibal over everything else, because Will still had everything else waiting him, if he'd wanted it. It wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying if Molly and Walter had died and then Will went with Hannibal. I wouldn't want a Will who followed Hannibal because he had nothing left. I liked him realizing their connection and embracing the dark part of himself fully, leaving everything that he was. (Plus, someone good like Molly has to take care of the dogs! Yes, my priorities are in order.) And I do think that Will doing what's 'right' and turning his back on Hannibal would have been too... not predictable, but too universally expected in conventional story telling. You don't expect the protagonist to give into what's wrong and throw the law and morality behind him. You expect him to ultimately catch the serial killer, not run away with him.

We have so many shows (procedurals, even) where the protagonist is fighting darkness or some horrible event in their past, or trying to atone, but always manages to pull themselves back to the straight and narrow. It's interesting that this show doesn't do that. I can't even say it's like something like Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, where the main character is an anti-hero or is a bad guy for much of the narrative's framing. Will, when we start out, is firmly a mild mannered investigator with an unusual gift, a variation of the Sherlock Holmes character that many procedural main characters are, the man who can look at a room and see what no one else can. But unlike those characters or shows, this show really delves into the darkness of what seeing that much death and getting that inside the heads of the killers can do to a person. Most of the first season is Will suffering with that. And it's not even the typical man pain, where the super special protagonist is so ~tortured over things. Will just suffers, period. You can see it starting to unravel his psyche permanently. Of course, Hannibal helps with that, lol. But yeah, him giving into Hannibal and darkness makes total sense. There were several episodes in this season when I was like "he's actually going dark, isn't he? he's flirting with the darkness. that's not an act. we had an act last season, but he's really getting there now."

Hannibal has become used to Will being (understandably) cold towards him, but even when the two were on friendly terms they never had anything like this. All of Hannibal's wet dreams came true, lol.

I'm going to have to pay attention during a rewatch as to exactly when Will went from calling him "Dr. Lecter" to "Hannibal" again, since he starts out his first prison visit with "Dr. Lecter." But let's see, if season two was the bad breakup, what exactly is season three? Cold exes reconcile, lol?

Haha, I was saying in another comment how Hannibal and Will being together is bad for everyone else. Hannibal by himself is bad enough, but with Will beside him? Ho boy.

Exactly. If Will has given in, together they're probably the most dangerous team you could imagine. Hannibal Lecter is THE serial killer on a show of psycho killers, and Will's skills make him a nearly impossible to out-think. Plus, they work together beautifully. It only took them a few moments to dispatch Dolarhyde once they were working together, and both of them were severely injured and Dolarhyde was quite the badass himself.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Oh, yes, I agree; if Molly had died then Will succumbing to the darkness and going to Hannibal would mean nothing. The fact that Molly was still an option through all of this, something he could've chosen at any point is important. If Will had nothing good in his life, if he had nothing to hold onto against all the outside horrors then him following Hannibal would be predictable and not noteworthy, but that he did go with Hannibal, then protect Hannibal, and instead of trying to capture him and leave him for Jack before running back to his own sweet family, he actually wanted what he had with Hannibal more. I mean, yea, like you said, it's obviously the wrong choice, but the fact that he made it is sort of... Morbidly wonderful. It's thrilling because it's so unexpected. This is Hannibal's triumph, basically. He doesn't deserve one but he got it anyway, and it's kind of awesome.

God, yea, he had some rough times in season one. He had some rough times period, but especially then when he didn't know what was going on and Hannibal was supposed to be helping him but was only making things worse. Given all this, it's truly amazing that Will still chose Hannibal. (You mentioned his act in season two... But the thing is, at the end of the season he still tells Hannibal to leave. There is some of Will tied up in that act, but I guess even for him it's hard to tell how much is real and how much is fake. I wonder the same thing about the bit where Will says he rejected Hannibal so Hannibal would stop running. If he didn't chase, Hannibal wouldn't run. In that moment I thought Will genuinely was so upset that he wasn't thinking of his words, but considering that he was manipulating Hannibal back then is pretty interesting.)

Oh, wow, now I want to know too... That kind of change can be significant. Wonder if it happened after a major event.

They really were impressive as hell with Dolarhyde. They worked together in harmony to take him down, and this looked like a spur of the moment thing. They couldn't have know exactly what would happen, they just ran with it. If Will and Hannibal had time to prepare? Fuck.

Alright, it's getting late and I'm tired so I'll probably answer your other comment tomorrow, but I wanted to say it's been nice talking you, anon! I was hoping someone would want to discuss this in depth, and here you were; it was perfect timing. Night! (Or day, or morning, lol.)

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

OP.

I mean, yea, like you said, it's obviously the wrong choice, but the fact that he made it is sort of... Morbidly wonderful. It's thrilling because it's so unexpected. This is Hannibal's triumph, basically. He doesn't deserve one but he got it anyway, and it's kind of awesome.

It is Hannibal's triumph. He's basically Satan, and he's done horrors to every character in the show including Will, but he wins in the end. He, almost impossibly, gets what he wants. Though not that I think that means Will is a blind follower or anything, or that everything has been beaten out of him and this is what he's left with. Like we've said, Will has had darkness for a while, and whatever life he's going to have with Hannibal from now on, I can't imagine he'll be anything but an active participant. Hannibal might be getting what he wants, but Will has walked into this with his eyes waaaaaay open, and by choosing it, it means he wants it, too.

You mentioned his act in season two... But the thing is, at the end of the season he still tells Hannibal to leave. There is some of Will tied up in that act, but I guess even for him it's hard to tell how much is real and how much is fake.

I think that's it. Will's act in S2 to lure Hannibal in started to blur the lines in his own mind. Maybe because being like Hannibal was so easy for him. Will's actions in the latter part of S2 might have started as an act, but it definitely ended with him conflicted enough to want Hannibal free. But in S3, there were parts where I really felt like he was skirting darkness for real, even though he seemed to pull back each time. These were times that he was talking to other people, not Hannibal, and so it didn't make sense for it to be an act (and we had already 'been there done that' on the act), like Will's confrontations with Pazzi, or his manipulation of Chiyoh, or even his moping in Hannibal's kitchen and conversation with Alana, or admitting to Jack that he wanted to go with Hannibal.

I wonder the same thing about the bit where Will says he rejected Hannibal so Hannibal would stop running. If he didn't chase, Hannibal wouldn't run. In that moment I thought Will genuinely was so upset that he wasn't thinking of his words, but considering that he was manipulating Hannibal back then is pretty interesting.

It is interesting. I wonder how much of it was Will manipulating Hannibal at the time, and how much of it was him just throwing out a 'mic drop,' as it were. After they escaped from Mason's farm, I thought Will's words were pretty genuine. He had given up on wanting Hannibal dead, and he didn't appear to care about catching him. He just wanted him gone, and said as much. I found Hannibal then turning himself in to be a real 'fuck you' to Will. 'Don't want to think about me or know where I am? I'll show you, etc.' But if Will did that, knowing that Hannibal would turn himself in then, I'm not sure what to think. Will's phrasing of 'if I rejected you' has a romantic connotation, but only last episode did he really consider (vocally, at least) that Hannibal could be in love with him. But if he really did 100% reject Hannibal so Hannibal would turn himself in, that on some level points out Will's words about not wanting to know where Hannibal was as a lie, since the capture and trial and media around Hannibal Lecter were bound to be everywhere one looked for a while, not to mention the fact that Will would definitely always know where he was, which means that he did, even subconsciously, intend to go find him again at some point.

They really were impressive as hell with Dolarhyde. They worked together in harmony to take him down, and this looked like a spur of the moment thing. They couldn't have know exactly what would happen, they just ran with it. If Will and Hannibal had time to prepare? Fuck.

Yeah. They just function as a unit, even when there's no time for planning, or even thinking. They were moving as one, almost on instinct, in perfect unison deadly with each other.

but I wanted to say it's been nice talking you, anon! I was hoping someone would want to discuss this in depth, and here you were; it was perfect timing.

Ditto! I am still waiting for the rest of the (American) internet to see the episode, but I just had to talk about it somewhere!

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

I agree, I think Will is smart enough to realize what choice he's made. I'm thinking of the dude he strung up earlier in the season and his actions with Chilton; he's not innocent, and he's already experienced some notion of what direction his darkness can take him in if he isn't careful. Some people still believe Will was trying to kill Hannibal and that if the two survive he'll go back to trying to kill Hannibal or reject his feelings, but that's not the vibe I got from Will.

Exactly! There would be no reason for Will to play up his desire to go with Hannibal or his frankly disturbing longing for him to others; it just made him look more mad and screwed up. He could've tried to forget Hannibal, but instead his first instinct was to chase him, and try to understand him. He became too tied up in Hannibal.

Being a shipper I admit the love comment came to mind; if Will was aware of how much a rejection would hurt Hannibal, how the hell didn't he realize Hannibal was in love with him? Hannibal's feelings for him are so fucked up and complex though... Maybe he never put a name to it. (That is, if you consider Bedelia to be correct. I personally think she is, even if Hannibal's idea of love is obviously an entirely different sort than the rest of humanity's, lol.) I think the idea that Will was so tired and done at that point that he wanted to throw in the towel holds some weight. Even feeling like that, I think it's possible that he truly didn't wish to lose sight of Hannibal forever, even if he wouldn't admit such a thing, so Hannibal turning himself in solved several of his problems.

They were so brutal! Predators, the both of them. For Hannibal that's nothing new, but the extent of Will's involvement just highlights how far he's come.

Me too, yea! Hopefully we'll even have some secrets about it soon. I can't wait to see everyone's reactions.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

Though I also think the fight with Dolarhyde was over the second Hannibal got a sharp object in his hand. I mean, this is the man who brought a knife to a gunfight (in the kitchen with Jack) and WON.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Mads is absolutely terrifying, holy shit. Him picking up the knife and ramming into the pantry door over and over again is a sight I'll never forget. Physically, he's a big man; he's imposing enough in that sense, but when you add in how calculated and cold he is as Hannibal... It's otherworldly.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

OP.

Though thinking of Freddie and the world at large, I wonder if they think Hannibal and Will are dead, or if Hannibal and Will have been making a name for themselves.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

It could be both! I bet some people will be convinced that they've escaped, and will be watching the news closely for crimes that could've been perpetuated by them. You know how Alana and Chilton say Hannibal has fans, and look at what happened with Dolarhyde. Given Freddie's murder husbands article I think she'll have fun either way.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

Or if they're just like murder shadows that could be Hannibal and Will, but no one knows for sure.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Murder shadows?.. Er, like copycat killers or something? Which part was this in reference too?

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, I just mean that no one will have proof that they're alive, and they'll never be seen, and they won't leave any evidence that fits Hannibals previous killings, but that sometimes there will be murders that COULD have been them but no one knows for sure. Especially since Hannibal only left evidence when he wanted to get attention, and mostly eats the evidence anyway. Now that he has Will he doesn't really need attention. They'll be like urban legends and if you get proof that they live it's too late for you.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

[elaminator]

Ooo, yes, urban legends! I like that. And of course with Will by his side leaving evidence isn't necessary. Hannibal doesn't need to show off now; if they were captured they would be separated, and that's the last thing Hannibal wants after waiting so long for Will to accept and join him.