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fandomsecrets2015-08-28 07:03 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2015-08-28 07:03 pm
[ SECRET POST #3159 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3159 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[Knights Errant]
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03.
[HeadOn]
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04.
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05.
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06. [SPOILERS for Tales of the Abyss]
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07. [WARNING for rape]
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08. [WARNING for sexual assault/harassment]
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09. [WARNING for child sexual abuse]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Hmm, I hadn't considered that Hannibal might have other homes, but it's certainly possible! (Probably even likely, given his love of all things fancy. He might have a few houses in beautiful, far off corners of the world.) I had expected that Hannibal and Will would need to go on the run, it would be safer that way, but now you've got me thinking Hannibal could already have a backup plan and a place they can stay.
That crossed my mind as well. I'm sure as soon as the ambush happened Jack had people out looking for them, but with how quickly he agreed to Will's plan... He doesn't expect them to survive. (Fuller said this too, that Jack assumes Will might die with Hannibal and that it's a reasonable sacrifice. Poor Molly... (If she had just asked Will to stay, maybe things would've been different, at least for a while longer.) But yea, eventually they would find Hannibal's house, but it might take a few days? Long enough for Will and Hannibal to escape despite their injuries.
I think you're right in that Hannibal wouldn't be into killing or eating dogs, but something about the imagery of him around them is freaking me out anyway. Maybe the fact that he feed some of Mason's face to Will's dogs. Of course Will put a quick stop to that, and I don't think Hannibal would risk such a thing again now that he has him for good, but... It's just a general feeling of being unsettled, lmao. Maybe he would even grow to like them, though. (Through Will.)
You will get no argument from me about how screwed up Will's murder art was. That this is something he did on his own free will is pretty telling.
In regards to Bedelia, I think it's a bit of both. You know Will wanted to run off with Hannibal but he wouldn't allow himself, and Bedelia did it with full consent and came out of it unscarred. Like Will says, he sure as hell didn't get away from Hannibal unscarred, so maybe there's a part of Will that wonders why Hannibal wouldn't let him get away without harm, but would Bedelia. Jealousy through that, at least partially. (Though of course, Hannibal feels betrayed by Will, and as Bedelia says, “My relationship with Hannibal is not as passionate as yours".)
I think it was supposed to be, since it really doesn't seem obvious at the time. Up to that point Will clearly wants to see Hannibal again, even seems to long for it, and it doesn't even feel vengeful at the time. Sure he might be holding onto some bitterness and anger, but he also seems to miss Hannibal. (The way he talks about him to Abigail.) All Pazzi sees is a man who had a close relationship with Hannibal who Hannibal brutally stabbed, trying to find him. The fact that Hannibal left him a heart and also Will seems to desperately want to see (when he thinks Hannibal is in the catacombs) is frightening. (Will isn't scared to go down there, and for someone who had went through what he went through that's something else.) And lastly, Will also all but tells him that Hannibal is going to kill him but when he goes down anyway doesn't seem all that concerned. Will does not care that much.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
The early episodes of season three, where Will admitted he wanted to go with Hannibal, where he almost seemed to be regretting what was destroyed between them, where he just sat in Hannibal's kitchen and moped, plus the manipulative darkness he had once he got to Italy, made me think he was really sliding into Hannibal's world. Then he tries to kill him in Italy, though now that seems like another last ditch effort to break the bond between them than that he really wanted to do it. I was surprised when it first happened, because he spent so much time almost mentally harping on what happened in the S2 finale, when he didn't even want Hannibal to go to jail, and now he's going to kill him? But looking at it in light of Will having this battle within himself, it makes more sense. He really is sliding.
I had expected that Hannibal and Will would need to go on the run, it would be safer that way, but now you've got me thinking Hannibal could already have a backup plan and a place they can stay.
On the run for Hannibal does not seem to mean that he sacrifices his fancy lifestyle. We never saw him wearing a hoodie and eating at McDonald's, lol. Like, he manages to go from the S2 bloodbath, to sitting in a first class seat bound for Italy. Then he kills someone there and sets up a new fancy life. But given his secret house in the finale, I wouldn't be surprised if he has similar boltholes. We've seen him plan ahead, and he's smart enough to know that getting caught sometime was a possibility.
Maybe he would even grow to like them, though. (Through Will.)
If he could train them to attack people, perhaps. He'd probably get a kick out of that.
Like Will says, he sure as hell didn't get away from Hannibal unscarred, so maybe there's a part of Will that wonders why Hannibal wouldn't let him get away without harm, but would Bedelia.
Y'know, if Will really has gone dark, this could explain why he would be a willing participant when Bedelia is served up.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I think you're on the money with that, because he spent way too long thinking about Hannibal and trying (not to mention wanting) to understand him to truly want him dead. (Plus, remember Hannibal's "I gave you a rare gift and you didn't want it." Will says "Didn't I?" He wouldn't have warned Hannibal about Jack if he didn't want him to escape; he wouldn't have warned him if he didn't care for Hannibal, and after Hannibal stabbed him in the stomach he wouldn't continue thinking wistfully about what might have been.)
And when he sees Hannibal again for the first time and they have that moment where Hannibal says, "If I saw you every day to the end of time I would always remember this moment" (didn't get that word by word, but whatever; that shit was full of love) and they smile at each other. That was the happiest Will has looked in almost the entire series. (IIRC.)
Plus...er, maybe he was simply going to injure Hannibal and try to get him back to Jack. That seems unlikely, but might be what he had in mind? (Either way, he was desperate to not become him. He could feel how close he was.)
We never saw him wearing a hoodie and eating at McDonald's, lol.
He would probably rather go to jail then live that sort of life, so you have a point. I can't even imagine Hannibal in a hoodie...that's insane. My brain can't process it. And the thing is, it would make sense for him to completely change his look and style of living, but of course to him it's so important that I don't think anything could stop him.
Ooo, attack dogs would be something. I wonder how Will would feel about that.
I truly think Will's bitchiness towards Bedelia stems from jealousy. She keeps taunting Will too, with the comments about being Hannibal's bride, etc. (Even though she's terrified of what Hannibal might do to her, I think she feels some of it too. She liked Hannibal's attention, when it was the good kind.)
You said you wanted to re-watch the show, right? Have you started? I'm on about episode 10 now, and loving it.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
And I've got a friend who's just watching it for the first time. I think she's hooked. :)
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
And you know I do. I'm going to go ahead and add you here on DW to keep 'track' of you (hope that's okay? tell me if it isn't) and if you'll link me to your LJ post when you finish I'll def comment! Now I wish I had made notes so we could compare.
I'm about to finish season 1 again, and I'm so confused by Hannibal, lmao. I feel like I understand Hannibal and his motivations more in s3 but I think part of it is just that Hannibal is such a fucked up person that he can simultaneously be attracted to Will and care about Will while also setting him up for murder and allowing him to struggle with illness that makes him think he's crazy.
And Bedelia...IDK what's up with Bedelia. Does she even know he's a cannibal at this point? They seem to always be skirting around the topic, and clearly she knows Hannibal isn't 'normal', she's made that person suit comment already, but does she know all the details? I can't remember, but the way Hannibal still seems to be playing her ("Oh, I was attacked by a patient, I was so shook up that I closed office for two days", "Oh, I'm so concerned for Will, I hope he doesn't go crazy even though I'm totes withholding knowledge that would allow him to be treated and get better".)
Bedelia says herself that he only shows her so much, but I suppose on some level he could mean it?
This fucking show. Poor Will. Poor, poor Will.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I mainly got her into the show by raving about how great it was and how organic everything Will/Hannibal was. We regularly complain about the Sherlock writers queerbaiting to each other. Like, I don't even particularly want Sherlock/John in canon, but if they're oh so straight, quit making jokey jokes about it in the text of the show. Either put up or shut up (I'd be perfectly happy with the shutting up option.) But the Hannibal show never does that. Will has a dream where he and Hannibal talk about loving one's beloved and they play it completely matter of fact. Everything on Hannibal is so organic, and all these moments Hannibal and Will have, while they could be romantic or not, you don't have the showrunner poo-pooing them in interviews. It was just refreshing to see a show where the writers decided they were going to put things in, and that since they did, they had to follow up on it.
And you know I do. I'm going to go ahead and add you here on DW to keep 'track' of you (hope that's okay? tell me if it isn't) and if you'll link me to your LJ post when you finish I'll def comment! Now I wish I had made notes so we could compare.
You can add me here on DW if you want, though I don't really use this journal for anything other than a LJ backup. Though if you're on LJ, you can also just track my 'tv: hannibal' tag (don't even have to friend to do that) and you'll get an email any time I make a post with that tag.
Make notes for S2! :)
Hannibal is such a fucked up person that he can simultaneously be attracted to Will and care about Will while also setting him up for murder and allowing him to struggle with illness that makes him think he's crazy.
I think part of it is him trying to get Will to see that murder feels good. The encephalitis just gave him an unexpected opportunity. If he can get Will to commit murders and feel unstable and come around to his point of view through Will's brain problems, so much the better. Weirdly, I do believe him when he says that he would 'put the fire out' before Will's brain burned too much. But by allowing Will to believe he's mentally ill, that also gives Will more cause to come to and rely on Hannibal. I think about what he said to Chilton about psychic driving; this is just part of the way he psychic drives Will. And I guess he always had a backup plan to get Will out of prison; losing Will permanently was never in the cards.
IDK what's up with Bedelia. Does she even know he's a cannibal at this point? They seem to always be skirting around the topic, and clearly she knows Hannibal isn't 'normal', she's made that person suit comment already, but does she know all the details?
I almost feel like the writers didn't know the whole story with Bedelia at that point. In 1x13, the first time I saw it, I was sure, SURE, that she knew she was eating people, or at least strongly suspected. Nothing ever feels like a real retcon, but in S1, you get the feeling she already knew he was dangerous, but we don't actually get the "you are... dangerous" moment until S2, and while it was a very well done confrontation, it sort of felt like a realization that S1 pointed to her already having had. S1 also made her really cold, so much so that you kind of wondered if she wasn't a bit of a murder queen herself. At least I wondered, lol.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
(Will has a dream where he and Hannibal talk about loving one's beloved and they play it completely matter of fact.)
That was actually one of my favorite scenes in s2, and I know I'm coming up on it again. I can't wait! (The fact that Will does say the word "love" in his dream with Hannibal just confirms for me that he does indeed love Hannibal, even if it's obviously a disturbed love. He also has a line in s2 "I envy you your hate. It makes it easier to know how to feel". That's such a great line and explains so much about their relationship and Will's internal conflict.)
And Bryan (I've been saying Brian all this time, haven't I? oops, lmao) Fuller actually mentioned that he wasn't planning on specifically addressing Hannibal being in love with Will (outright, anyway) but that's the direction the show went in, and that's what he was getting out of Mads and Hughs performance, and that it just felt right. So what you say about those two always feeling organic is so true.
I added you over here but I can't add you over there unless I validate my email. I guess I should try to do that later... Either way I'll keep looking back for your entry!
My 'notes' for s2 basically consist of dialogue I copied down because I thought I might want to discuss it later. Was too caught up in the show to do much actual note-taking.
And having seen the entire first season again, I think you're right. Hannibal even says as much, several times! He wants Will to see his 'full potential' and that to him is showing Will he cares. Will (or anyone or everyone else, lmao) might not see it that way, but allowing Will to keep living without fully knowing, understanding, or exploring his 'true nature' would be doing Will a sort of disservice. He wants to see Will get his 'becoming', so he tries to drive Will to it through whatever means possible. ("With all my knowledge and intrusion I could never entirely predict you. I can feed the caterpillar, I can whisper through the chrysalis, but what hatches follows its own nature and is beyond me." He's delighted that he can't fully predict Will; Will is his only equal.)
And I guess he always had a backup plan to get Will out of prison; losing Will permanently was never in the cards.
I think so too. Hannibal is always about 20 steps ahead of everyone else, and he has plans and backup plans and backup plans of those backup plans. Even as early as the first episode of season 2, he's already missing Will.
Bedelia: Will Graham asking to see you betrays his clear intent to manipulate you.
Hannibal: And if I agree to see Will?
Bedelia: It betrays your clear intent to manipulate him.
Hannibal: I miss him.
Bedelia: You are obsessed with Will Graham.
Hannibal: I'm intrigued.
Bedelia: Obsessively.
He's already going on to Bedelia about him and you can see how lonely and wistful he is when he's sitting in his office looking at the chair Will used to sit in. When the 'orderly' kills the bailiff Hannibal urges Will to run with it because "I don't want you to be here". When the judge throws out Hannibal's testimony, he kills him. Then of course all the other stuff he had to set up to clear Will's name; Hannibal goes to great lengths to have Will free again. To Hannibal the game isn't as enjoyable that way, even if he does always know where to find Will. (oh, how much has changed)
Now I'm going to say Bedelia didn't understand that Hannibal was a cannibal during season one. Given her moments with him in s1 she knew something, but nothing as dark as the truth. In s2 she seems to comes to the conclusion and of course pulls herself away from him.
It was interesting seeing how cold Bedelia was in s1, yes, because she seems a bit more normal and rational in s2, and then in s3 she gets a bit of that 'murder queen' feel back to her. Even though she doesn't purposefully help Hannibal kill people (well, until that one time when Hannibal doesn't finish the job quick enough), she certainly stands by and watches. (Because she's 'curious what will happen'.) Then there's the crushed bird comment, and even though she is terrified at the thought of what Hannibal plans to do to her, she's still so intrigued by him, and seemingly bitter at the thought that Hannial is more fond of Will than her. Bedelia had a great character arc and is pretty damn complex herself.
I'll reply to the other comments a bit later! I was trying to finish s2 first so I could reply with 'full knowledge', but I've still got about six episodes to go.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Yeah. It's not fandom's ~interpretation of what's going on, it's the focus of the show, particularly after S1.
Fuller actually mentioned that he wasn't planning on specifically addressing Hannibal being in love with Will (outright, anyway) but that's the direction the show went in, and that's what he was getting out of Mads and Hughs performance, and that it just felt right.
Yes, I saw that! I love that he saw something there and decided that was the way they needed to go, instead of seeing something there and backing off.
I added you over here but I can't add you over there unless I validate my email. I guess I should try to do that later... Either way I'll keep looking back for your entry!
I've got the first half up now! My friend's watching is going slower than mine, so she's only halfway through S1. But I had more than enough for a post. But my watching is going slower than yours, lol. I haven't started S2 yet. Most of my notes are just random things I thought were interesting, or scenes I liked. Though I'm specifically keeping track of anything related to how I see Will ending up.
allowing Will to keep living without fully knowing, understanding, or exploring his 'true nature' would be doing Will a sort of disservice
Yes! It's just that Hannibal's ideas about these things are about 100% removed from the rest of humanity's.
Even as early as the first episode of season 2, he's already missing Will. He's already going on to Bedelia about him and you can see how lonely and wistful he is when he's sitting in his office looking at the chair Will used to sit in.
I'll have to wait to discuss S2 in a little more depth, but I do remember this. It's like Hannibal has this weird compartmentalization of emotions. 'I framed Will for murder! Success!' and 'sad, no one to talk to now' exist simultaneously without conflict in his mind.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Ugh, yea. So many other shows would run in the opposite direction if there was even a smidgen of that, so I'm very thankful to Fuller for embracing it instead. If it feels organic for the story and characters then the only reason to throw it out would be because you don't want the characters to be anything but straight, you don't want to change their relationship (which this didn't do, since as mentioned, it was all already there) or you don't want to risk losing viewers. Hannibal obviously already had issues with ratings, so...
Be glad your rewatch is going slower because all I did over the weekend was watch Hannibal. Well, and the necessities, but that was pretty much it. I envy you for having a friend going through the show for the first time because it's delightful watching new fans react to the shock of this show. I saw a post on tumblr from someone still in season one going, "Holy shit, how can you guys ship poor Will with Hannibal, Hannibal is HORRIBLE and Will deserves hugs!" and I just laughed and laughed.
It's good that one of us took notes...
It's just that Hannibal's ideas about these things are about 100% removed from the rest of humanity's.
So true. That sums up Hannibal perfectly, tbh. It's hard to wrap your head around that idea, that Hannibal doing such destructive, abusive things to Will could be the right, loving thing, but to Hannibal that's exactly how it is.
'I framed Will for murder! Success!' and 'sad, no one to talk to now' exist simultaneously without conflict in his mind.
Oooooo yea. For some reason this also reminds me of that scene in s1 where Abel Gideon is sitting at Hannibal's table, Will is having a seizure (and Hannibal is carefully checking him over) and Gideon is like, "Uh, you don't seem awfully concerned." Hannibal is just like, "Well, I did say mild." Then when Will 'wakes up' he all but urges Will to go after Abel Gideon, knowing he'll want to protect Alana. He's got so many things going on in his head at any given moment it's ridiculous. Like, I do believe if he had thought Will was in 'true danger' he would've helped him and maybe events would have played out different because he does care, but that care is the most twisted form of care possible.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Low ratings helped us for once, lol!
And I know in S1 interviews, Fuller described Will and Hannibal as a bromance, but that changed. But it changed slowly and organically, and even by S2, the writers were using language like 'bad breakup' describe the plot line. I don't see them going into 'love' territory as pandering, because it came out of the performance and the writing. I think Hannibal was definitely in love with Will by the end of S2, but perhaps didn't fully realize it until the kitchen bloodbath. What is it he says to Will? 'do you think you changed me like I changed you?' and Will says 'I already have.' I think Hannibal wanted to walk out of the kitchen free and easy as he'd always been, but Will had changed him somehow, made him feel all these 'inconvenient' things. Even if it didn't change Hannibal to 'good', it changed something in him that he had no control over.
And I love that in S3 when Will asked if Hannibal was in love with him, there was never any vibe of 'but we're guys!' at all. Any discomfort Will felt was at the idea of HANNIBAL being in love with him, not a man being in love with him. Nor was there any big deal made of it (much like Alana and Margo, there was never a big deal or an Orientation Announcement). In an interview, Fuller said Will was heterosexual and Hannibal was omnisexual. Obviously Hannibal is in love with Will, but I'm undecided about Will's feelings, mainly because he's all over the place, lol. Maybe that will change with a rewatch. Though I think it's possible that Will could be in love with Hannibal and not desire him sexually. I'm just not sure that I even see Will there yet. We've definitely got the 'can't live with him, can't live without him,' deeply codependent NEED of each other, but I can't tell if Will is actually in love. On one podcast that I was listening to (AfterBuzz TV reviews), they all thought Will was in love with Hannibal. Which was a bit neat, as these were paid TV reviewers, and not fans/shippers. But I think it's definitely canon that Hannibal loves Will, that it's not even open to interpretation anymore. No, he never said "I love you", but his whole story past the S2 finale was 'lover scorned', we have the Will and Bedelia conversation, we have the earlier Bedelia and Hannibal conversation ("love either pays you a visit or he doesn't") we have as close a line as possible from Hannibal ("my compassion for you is inconvenient"), and finally, we have the look on Hannibal's face when Will hugs him. That was not a platonic look but any definition of the word. You know, up to S3, I would have said that Hannibal was asexual, because even in S2, sex with Alana could have been part of his person suit (this is what people in relationships do, and he was working to blind her, etc). But then in S3, he's having sex with Bedelia, and she knows what he is, so that's obviously not for cover, and sex is something he enjoys. Though I still think he probably has a low sex drive, as what he NEEDS to do is murder, and that's where his focus lies, lol. But yeah, in light of S3, I can see omnisexual. Haha, I just typed a lot, clearly I have another post about the finale I need to make. But yeah, Hannibal is omnisexual and in love with Will. Will is heterosexual and... needs Hannibal in the worst way possible? hasn't come around to admitting he's in love with Hannibal? IDK. But I think that even if Hannibal had will as a life partner/murder partner (with occasional bloody hugs), he'd be perfectly satisfied and not need any more from their relationship.
For some reason this also reminds me of that scene in s1 where Abel Gideon is sitting at Hannibal's table, Will is having a seizure (and Hannibal is carefully checking him over) and Gideon is like, "Uh, you don't seem awfully concerned." Hannibal is just like, "Well, I did say mild."
Yes! It's like, he's my friend, he's seizing, but it's not like BAD or anything, what's the big deal? He does say to Sutcliff that they'll put out the fire in Will's brain before he really burns, and I'm weirdly inclined to believe him. A dead Will is no use to Hannibal; he just wants to use the encephalitis to speed up Will's mental break.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
That's ironic as hell.
and even by S2, the writers were using language like 'bad breakup' describe the plot line
Exactly. And especially by the S2 finale (and after), if you aren't seeing that relationship as a 'bad breakup' I'm not sure what show you're watching.
I don't see them going into 'love' territory as pandering
I don't think it was pandering in the least, because if it had been pandering it would've felt cheap and sudden, and nothing about Will and Hannibal's relationship felt inorganic or rushed; it built up over the course of the show, and even as early as s1 there was certainly affection and friendship between them. On Hannibal's part I'd go so far as to say he loved Will even before s2, though by s2 it was a deeper connection, and he maybe only realized the extent of his feelings when season 2 neared its end. (Though...he seems to keep Abigail for Will, so he may have been planning the 'family' thing for quite some time.)
I think Hannibal wanted to walk out of the kitchen free and easy as he'd always been, but Will had changed him somehow, made him feel all these 'inconvenient' things.
For sure, Hannibal wanted a life with Will and Abigail, and as far as we know he's always been on his own, he's never included anyone else in his 'plans' before. He wanted to be with Will, he wanted to have a partner, and Hannibal isn't used to feeling those things or wanting them; he isn't used to caring about someone so deeply, so I think that's how Will changed him. Hannibal killing Abigail...I think it was part to spite Will after he'd been rejected (Like, "Well, you say you've changed me, look at how much I've changed") and part him trying to 'reset' things. (The teacup and all that.) As dramatic as it sounds (and is), Hannibal had his heart broken.
Certainly with other shows they might've made a big deal about having queer characters, but that's one thing I enjoyed about Hannibal; it was presented as perfectly normal and not something to make a stink about.
Though I think it's possible that Will could be in love with Hannibal and not desire him sexually.
That's how I've felt about Will since...well, a long time. Probably at least some point in s2. Near the end of s2 even though he's 'playing' Hannibal, there's a sense of him enjoying himself. (And Hannibal's company.) He's losing himself in it a bit. Sure he's still bitter, he still knows that Hannibal is wrong and he doesn't want to be like him, but this isn't new. Will struggles with light and dark, good and evil the entire show, and he doesn't want to admit that he has any sort of positive feelings toward Hannibal but he's obviously lying to himself. In s1 he at least sees Hannibal as a close confident, and his feelings are QUITE strong by the end of s2 or else he wouldn't be so conflicted about what he 'has' to do. By s3 when he's practically pining for Hannibal, and when he first meets with him again in the art gallery, I think it's definitely Will in love. Look at the way Will watches Hannibal during that scene; there's so much affection in his gaze. It's almost this soft, kind of starry expression; it's ridiculous. http://i.imgur.com/7F2UABE.png (He's this happy to see Hannibal after all Hannibal has done to him. To have heart eyes after all that...idk, it doesn't feel in the least bit platonic to me.)
He hates that he feels that way, and he tries to deny it for a long time, but even as early as s2 he's having that dream about 'your beloved's potential', and I feel like that's an interesting choice of words. Why does he ask "Is Hannibal in love with me?" in s3 if he already suspects as much in s2? I wonder if it's both that Will is seeing himself from Hannibal's perspective and going, "He loves me, this is his way of showing me he cares" and maybe a bit of him realizing that he also loves Hannibal, and resisting the thought that him doing so could be okay.
IDK, these two are complicated.
To sum it up though, I don't even think the sex matters much; I feel like both of them could have a romantic relationship without it. I do think that sexuality can be fluid though (not always, but for some people and in some situations) and this is one of those cases where I feel like Will 'being in love' with Hannibal could make him okay with a sexual aspect to their relationship; it could push him to crave intimacy with a man even if maybe he's never considered it before. I'm not sure that Hannibal has spent a lot of time thinking about Will in a sexual nature, but there IS something about the way he looks at Will... I'd be surprised if he hadn't considered it at all. (I don't think Hannibal 'needs' sex, though. I feel like sex is probably a perk, but maybe one he doesn't engage in often because he needs someone who he feels is 'worthy' of him and there simply aren't many he feels are. Bedelia is probably the closest anyone has ever come to understanding him besides Will, so he feels connected to her on some level.)
On one podcast that I was listening to (AfterBuzz TV reviews), they all thought Will was in love with Hannibal.
Great, I'm already listening to Hannibal podcasts and now I have another to add to the list! Haha. (No, really, I love them, it's great.) Honestly, on the two I've listened to everyone seemed to agree that there was a lot of love between Hannibal and Will and that the whole ending was very romantic in nature. Lots of good natured jokes about staring lovingly into each others eyes and nuzzling, and one podcast in particular was very convinced of Will and Hannibal's love for each other and took it quite seriously. I'm not even sure how you could watch s3 and come to any other conclusion... Hannibal repeatedly uses the word love in conversations concerning Will. Even if he's not flat out saying, "I love you Will Graham", he might as well be. And that's not even taking into account his actions. (We could be here all day so I won't get into those.)
But I think that even if Hannibal had will as a life partner/murder partner (with occasional bloody hugs), he'd be perfectly satisfied and not need any more from their relationship.
I basically agree with this, though I can easily see their relationship eventually morphing into one that includes some kind of sexual intimacy. I don't so much imagine it as the two of them humping like rabbits over every dead body (lmao, this is what I feel fandom wants, which...fair enough), but that desire could exist and be reciprocated. The whole 'low sex drive' thing feels pretty IC.
A dead Will is no use to Hannibal; he just wants to use the encephalitis to speed up Will's mental break.
Hannibal the helpful cannibal. How thoughtful of you, Hannibal.
(I typed too much, good lord.)
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Hannibal killing Abigail...I think it was part to spite Will after he'd been rejected (Like, "Well, you say you've changed me, look at how much I've changed")
Yeah, it was definitely a punishment for Will.
(He's this happy to see Hannibal after all Hannibal has done to him. To have heart eyes after all that...idk, it doesn't feel in the least bit platonic to me.)
I still can't believe Will is so HAPPY in that scene, lol. But I'll have to pay attention to Will's feelings for Hannibal in my S2 rewatch. I think there's something there, but I think he's repressing it so much that he'd deny it's anything other than deep friendship. Not because Hannibal is a man, necessarily, but because Hannibal is evil and wanting anything to do with him is bad. Bad enough that Will can't stay away when they're 'friends,' but what would it say of Will if Will was actually in love with such a person? I think that's the main thing he's struggling with. And I think it might not be something he even realizes until after the S2 finale, when he has so much time to think and process and think of what might have been. But thinking of dark Will, how about that scene where he imagines the two of them killing Jack? I mean, that's not even wishing he'd run away with Hannibal, that's daydreaming about the murder of his boss/friend.
Hannibal repeatedly uses the word love in conversations concerning Will. Even if he's not flat out saying, "I love you Will Graham", he might as well be.
Yep. Add that to the list of reasons why this show is the opposite of queerbaiting. Nothing jokey or to interpretation, just a guy 100% secure in himself discussing love like it's no big deal.
Great, I'm already listening to Hannibal podcasts and now I have another to add to the list!
I assume you've found A Matter of Taste?
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Absolutely, yea. Hannibal is not that interested with 'normal' people, it takes something special to draw his gaze. Will is unique in so many ways (What you said about Will being able to see clearer than others, and the fact that he can get inside the killers head and understand what they're going through...Hannibal has never known anyone like him; he's a unicorn) and that's what makes Hannibal look at him and go, "Huh, this guy is different."
he doesn't seem to have that much affection for other killers just because they're killers
Right, that's true. He might have a shallow curiosity, but those people are nothing beyond a momentary distraction. He doesn't care about them in any deep or meaningful way; he just acknowledges they share something vaguely in common.
I still can't believe Will is so HAPPY in that scene, lol.
The language in that scene is so flowery, too. You can't help but read into it, because this isn't some simple, "Hello, I'm going to attempt to kill you now." Will is relieved to see Hannibal, he's been wanting to see Hannibal, he wants to understand Hannibal and he practically drinks in the sight of him. Whatever Will might say (Like his "Good? No" when Hannibal asks, "Was it good to see me?"
Though honestly, I mean, good isn't really the appropriate word because again, Hannibal is FAR from good for Will, but that doesn't mean Will doesn't enjoy it regardless), he truly does have a lot of complex feelings regarding Hannibal, and not all of them are negative ones. He knows they should be so he's ashamed of them ("What kind of person falls in love with the devil?" etc), but you can't control how you feel. (Or who you fall in love with, as Hannibal says.)But thinking of dark Will, how about that scene where he imagines the two of them killing Jack? I mean, that's not even wishing he'd run away with Hannibal, that's daydreaming about the murder of his boss/friend.
I feel like some people might write that off as Will fantasizing about killing Jack because that's what Hannibal wants, and he can't seem to help seeing what Hannibal wants and does even back when such thoughts disgusted him. However, I believe by the end of s2 Will has changed a good deal; he's becoming more like Hannibal, with him repeating Hannibal's "I wanted to see what would happen". Part of Will is curious as to what killing Jack with Hannibal would be like. It doesn't mean he wants to do it, but something about the thought intrigues him, I think. (Which is another reason he wants it all to end at the end of s2, and I imagine at the end of s3 as well; he's tired of feeling torn in two.)
I assume you've found A Matter of Taste?
I did, yes, and I adore it! A Matter of Taste and Eat The Rudecast are my favorites. I especially like how Eat the Rudecast breaks down the episodes and though they have some fun with it, they still take the show very seriously and aren't afraid to talk about all the small details and hidden meanings. A Matter of Taste is great too though, and I never get tired of their jokes on Hannibal/Will. (Again, though those jokes are good natured and they still take the relationship itself seriously.) I'm pretty new to podcasts (I love Welcome to Night Vale, but don't have much experience with them other than that), and though I like the idea of discussing a show in-depth like this, most shows just don't have this much to dissect. Hannibal....you could spend a few months watching the episodes and picking them apart.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Will is relieved to see Hannibal, he's been wanting to see Hannibal, he wants to understand Hannibal and he practically drinks in the sight of him.
The scene really does read like long-parted lovers. It's all very understated, but it's like this epic reunion.
Though I still have to wonder at what Will's plan was afterward. Stab Hannibal on street? Where there are like witnesses? Then what?
Part of Will is curious as to what killing Jack with Hannibal would be like. It doesn't mean he wants to do it, but something about the thought intrigues him, I think.
And I think Will is just analyzing what went down in 2x13 to death. He's regretted the decision he made as well as regretting the ones he had available to him. He already knows how badly what happened turned out, so I think he's flirting with the idea of would it really have been so bad for things to have gone another way.
I'm pretty new to podcasts (I love Welcome to Night Vale, but don't have much experience with them other than that
Ha, me too! I just have a hard time getting into things for listening to. I tried WtNV and liked it, and I ended up finding TV show podcasts simply because I was desperate to hear other people's post episode thoughts.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Murder IS a binding force.
It's all very understated, but it's like this epic reunion.
There are few reunions that have satisfied me in the same way. It was better than I could've hoped for. (And infinitely more touching than I could've hoped, given...well, everything.)
Where there are like witnesses? Then what?
God knows with Will, really. Maybe he assumed that Jack would eventually find them, but...Hannibal definitely would have plenty of time to kill him by that point. (Maybe, again, he didn't care?)
He already knows how badly what happened turned out, so I think he's flirting with the idea of would it really have been so bad for things to have gone another way.
Well, he does have that conversation with himself about infinite universes, and "If everything that can happen happens, then you can never really do the wrong thing." He seems to be longing for the idea that things could've been different, even as he knows that some of the things he wants are wrong. "The wrong thing being the right thing to do was too ugly a thought." It's interesting rewatching that scene because Abigail (which of course is truly Will's own thoughts) says, "He was supposed to take me with him." Then Will asks 'Abigail' "After everything he's done, you'd still go to him?" He does, too! So yea, I think Will went through a whole lot of regret and his feelings for Hannibal are more conflicted than ever. He's battling with what he knows he should feel and how he actually feels.
WTNV was a first for me! I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it too. Are there any other podcasts you listen to, other than Hannibal ones? (We might not share the same fandoms, idk, but I'm open to suggestions if we do!)
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
Or ramen.
He seems to be longing for the idea that things could've been different, even as he knows that some of the things he wants are wrong. "The wrong thing being the right thing to do was too ugly a thought."
That episode is totally going to change on rewatch, given that we know that anything he says to Abigail is just part of his own mind hashing things out. It's like Abigail is the pro-Hannibal part of his mind, and he's arguing with it, but then even HE starts coming around.
Are there any other podcasts you listen to, other than Hannibal ones? (We might not share the same fandoms, idk, but I'm open to suggestions if we do!)
I started listening to Made of Fail and Anglo-Filles, which are general fandom podcasts, but that's it. At least Anglo-Filles had one episode discussing Hannibal at some point.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
That episode is totally going to change on rewatch
Oh yes, it adds so many layers to the whole Hannibal/Will relationship, and Will's own feelings on their relationship. (Which are surprisingly...I don't want to say positive, but forgiving and full of longing considering all that Hannibal has put him through.)
"He was my friend." Like...WHY?! He played you like a fiddle Will, he hurt you in unspeakable ways, and yet Will still sees him as someone who cares about. It's almost impossible to comprehend the bond those two have, or why Will would still hold any fondness for Hannibal after the events that transpired. (But again, Will is a unicorn; he doesn't always make sense, neither do most people's emotions. Plus...empathy. Maybe he appreciates that Hannibal took such an interest in him, even as he wishes that interest had been less...er, violent, manipulative and abusive, lol.)
It's like Abigail is the pro-Hannibal part of his mind, and he's arguing with it, but then even HE starts coming around.
I think by that point it's possible that the 'pro-Hannibal' part of his mind was expanding. He seems more for him than against him, but the rest of him is still causing conflict.
Thanks! I will look into them.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I do think in S2 (even though we learn in S3 that Will didn't know what he was going to say until Hannibal picked up the phone) that Will just wanted Hannibal to escape. I'm not sure he wanted to go with him then, he just didn't want to fulfill the plan that Jack had. In retrospect, he says that part of him wanted to go, but I'm not quite sure he was there in the moment in S2. But that will be something to pay attention to and think about on the rewatch. But yeah, if he didn't really have some feelings of connection, he wouldn't be mooning over Hannibal (romantically or platonically) after Hannibal literally gutted him).
(didn't get that word by word, but whatever; that shit was full of love)
I KNOW. And Will looks really happy, too. Hannibal obvs does.
And then in the street afterward, Will pulls a knife on him. Granted, we didn't get to see him do anything with it, since Chiyoh took him out, so we don't know how far Will would have been able to go. But we have the 'you dropped your forgiveness' line from Hannibal.
What do you think of Hannibal taking a saw to Will's head after that? I really didn't like it upon first watching, and I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about it, given that in the books/movies, that act was inflicted upon someone Hannibal cared nothing for. I mean, I have no problem with the idea of Hannibal wanting to eat Will, but that just seemed suddenly extreme? IDK. Especially since in the next episode, he's back to saving Will from getting his face cut off and not eating him. Murder husbands are complicated, what can I say.
One thing I'm going to pay attention to while rewatching S2 is Will's nonreaction to things. I saw it pointed out on Tumblr that Will has a lot of freakouts and upset faces to crime scenes in S1, but by the time Mason is eating his own nose, Will just has a really cool, icy face most of the time. I think that carries into S3 as well.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I'm excited to rewatch season 2 for this reason! I feel like either would make sense, that Will either didn't fully realize he wanted to run away with Hannibal at the time, or that he did actually acknowledge it but was so conflicted about it that he would never have been able to. In S3 he's clearly had lots of time to think about his feelings, but in the moment he just doesn't want Hannibal to be caged. I suppose you could even say he warns Hannibal because he doesn't want Hannibal to hurt his friends, but I don't think it's just that; Will is in too deep by that point.
It's a sad commentary on Will Graham's life that the happiest he's ever been was when meeting up with the man who sent him to jail, shanked him and tried to kill his friends/colleagues. It's very telling too, just how screwed up poor Will is and how much he craves the kind of attention and understanding that only Hannibal can give him.
"You dropped your forgiveness" is such a great line, lmao. That is true...it's certainly possible Will had the same idea as Hannibal, that to completely forgive Hannibal he would have to kill him. (And again, if you take it that way it shows just how alike Hannibal and Will can be.) I guess it could also be a straightforward, "Hannibal is such a monster that if I don't kill him he's going to continue to slaughter", type thing, but again with Pazzi from earlier in the season... he doesn't even seem particularly concerned about his fate, he almost seems 'playful' when warning him.
If he would have been able to actually go through with killing Hannibal or not...we'll never know, but I'm going to say no. He could've let Dolarhyde kill Hannibal, but then again he must have known he couldn't take on Dolarhyde alone, and he wouldn't have wanted Dolarhyde to escape. But then you have to take into consideration that Will probably could've pushed Hannibal off the cliff without going over it as well, but he didn't want to because at that point he was so connected to Hannibal that it was impossible for him to separate them.
Murder husbands ARE complicated! I'm not entirely sure what to think about the saw either. Hannibal is so happy to see and connect with Will again, then he almost immediately goes straight back to "You look delicious, gonna eat you." A large part of me believes that if Will hadn't pulled the knife, Hannibal would've forgiven Will. He wouldn't have tried to kill Will again if Will hadn't acted first. If at that point Will wanted to actually 'run away with him', Hannibal would've gladly went with it; he would've let bygones be bygones. Since Will did indeed try to 'betray' him again, Hannibal feels that Will will ALWAYS do so, that he'll never be able to completely give up on his good nature, and that he has to take Will out of the picture once and for all or this will keep happening. I don't feel like he was happy about it, but it was maybe something he felt like he had to do, you know? Will had rejected him one too many times.
As for saving Will next episode, well...you know how much Hannibal cares about Will. In his own fucked up way, Will is the only thing he loves and cherishes. Seeing Will almost harmed by someone else probably infuriated him; look at his face when Dolarhyde stabbed Will in the face. If Hannibal hurts Will, well, that's one thing, but by that point I think anyone else hurting Will isn't acceptable. (Sending Dolarhyde after Will's family isn't quite the same in Hannibal's mind I think, because he orchestrated that. It still counts as his victory.) Plus, he gets to see Will take a chunk out of Mason's cook...he gets another glimpse of Will's 'potential'. I think it's one of those things where he wants Will to come to his full potential; Will is his weakness in a way, and he lets him get away with things he wouldn't from others. When it comes down to it, it's easier for him to forgive Will.
Ooo, thank you for pointing that out to me! I'm going to pay attention to that too. Also, I think you might've mentioned this at some point, but his pendulum is all but gone in s3. I think anyway. He doesn't have as much use for it in s3 anyway, but that's still very telling. I wonder how his pendulum comes into play in s2.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I was watching old interviews on Youtube, and Hugh Dancy said something about Will in S2 being torn right up until the end on Jack's plan and Hannibal's plan, and that by calling, he was perhaps trying to stop either of them and both of them. Which I can also see. Will wants to avoid all of it. But I think by S3, he's had time to think, and by the end of S3, he makes the decision he couldn't at the end of S2.
If he would have been able to actually go through with killing Hannibal or not...we'll never know, but I'm going to say no. He could've let Dolarhyde kill Hannibal
Will has problems making decisions. I think he was going to watch Dolarhyde for as long as possible (not committed to Hannibal's death either way), until something happened that forced his hand one way or the other. It really is a great image, though, Hannibal bleeding out on the floor while Dolarhyde sets up his camera and Will coolly sips his wine. Though it seemed pretty clear that Will's plan (to the extent that he had one) was to shoot Dolarhyde in the head, but Dolarhyde stabbed him first.
but again with Pazzi from earlier in the season... he doesn't even seem particularly concerned about his fate, he almost seems 'playful' when warning him.
Yeah, it's almost like 'Hannibal is so totally going to rip your guts out. lol bye.'
it's certainly possible Will had the same idea as Hannibal, that to completely forgive Hannibal he would have to kill him
I think Will did forgive Hannibal, but that his main motivation in killing Hannibal was what Chiyoh said, that if he didn't kill Hannibal, he was going to become him. Whereas Hannibal, now that he has forgiveness, seems to think that in order for HIM to forgive Will, he needs to eat him.
A large part of me believes that if Will hadn't pulled the knife, Hannibal would've forgiven Will ... Since Will did indeed try to 'betray' him again, Hannibal feels that Will will ALWAYS do so, that he'll never be able to completely give up on his good nature, and that he has to take Will out of the picture once and for all or this will keep happening.
Yeaaah, I lean this way. I think that whatever actions Hannibal was debating, Will's attempt on him just pushed him to the most extreme one. It's almost like the S2 finale all over again. If Will hadn't betrayed him, he never would have gutted him, if Will hadn't betrayed him here, he never would have taken a saw to him. And we knew he was contemplating eating Will since his conversation episodes earlier with Bedelia. But still, it was really jarring for me at the time, lol.
Seeing Will almost harmed by someone else probably infuriated him; look at his face when Dolarhyde stabbed Will in the face.
Yesssss. Even though Will was, for all Hannibal knew, standing there about to watch him die, Hannibal STILL goes crazy at someone else hurting Will. And look at his face the second he sees Dolarhyde pull the knife. He immediately looks to Will, his face like 'oh no my precious bb'. Seriously, it is.
If Hannibal hurts Will, well, that's one thing, but by that point I think anyone else hurting Will isn't acceptable. Plus, he gets to see Will take a chunk out of Mason's cook...he gets another glimpse of Will's 'potential'
And I suppose he had a little bit of time to cool down from wanting to saw into Will's head. Though I still kind of hate that it would have happened if it hadn't been for MASON of all people. But Will's small rebellious acts toward Mason and Cordell definitely make Hannibal appreciate him all over again, and of course he is infuriated if anyone else tries to hurt Will, not to mention all the horrors Mason had planned for Will. He probably would have saved Will even if Alana hadn't asked him to, if he'd been able to get free on his own.
(Sending Dolarhyde after Will's family isn't quite the same in Hannibal's mind I think, because he orchestrated that. It still counts as his victory.)
Plus, Will wasn't even at home, so there was no chance of Dolarhyde actually hurting Will. As I rewatch, I'm also keeping track of the 'murder by proxy attempts,' lol.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I need to watch more interviews. I've watched a few and thoroughly enjoyed them. Anyway, this makes perfect sense because Will looks so tired and conflicted by the end of season 2. He's being pulled in every direction and though he knows what he should want to do, his heart is not exactly where it should be. Just about any other character in any other show would be gleefully throwing Hannibal under the bus right about then, but of course Will is not any other character.
Hannibal bleeding out on the floor while Dolarhyde sets up his camera and Will coolly sips his wine.
Okay, you laughed right? I would be surprised to find someone who didn't laugh at that moment. It was such a perfect parallel to Will bleeding out on the floor in the s2 finale and Hannibal looking down on him from above. I think Will let go of a lot (not all of it, mind) of his 'anger' by the time he sits with Hannibal in the museum in the first half of the season, but then Hannibal tried to kill him again, and then when he saw Hannibal again he tried to have his family killed, and yea, a part of Will is enjoying Hannibal being the one to bleed out on the floor even though I don't think he truly wants him dead. (Knows he has to die maybe, but he wouldn't enjoy that knowledge anymore.)
I wonder how different things would have been if Will had got to shoot Dolarhyde in the head.
Yeah, it's almost like 'Hannibal is so totally going to rip your guts out. lol bye.'
I said this before, but he's the same with Bedelia. I think Will is harder to shake in general by s3... he's been through so much that the death of others might still be unpleasant, but it doesn't seem to effect him to the same extent. And he's so much more cynical that he seems almost okay with it altogether with certain people. I don't think s1 Will would've been, but he's changed a lot.
that if he didn't kill Hannibal, he was going to become him
That ties right in to the finale! That's true. (And again, says a lot about Will that Hannibal existing out in the world is so big a threat. Even if he avoids Hannibal now, I guess he knows that he'll always come back to Hannibal and that one day he won't be able to resist him.)
If Will hadn't betrayed him, he never would have gutted him, if Will hadn't betrayed him here, he never would have taken a saw to him.
Yea. Which...again, is horrifying, but to Hannibal I'm sure it makes perfect sense. He gave Will a chance to 'repent' both times and Will denied him. What the hell else is a cannibalistic serial killer supposed to do?
He immediately looks to Will, his face like 'oh no my precious bb'.
Exactly! It's the same for both of them; they can betray each other time and time again, and they'll keep caring because they can't help it. (There's also a part of me that's really amused by how fond Hannibal sounds of Dolarhyde earlier in the season, but how Hannibal being Hannibal, will quickly slice him up with absolutely no regrets (and an actual considerable amount of joy) after he comes after him (and his bf).
Is that your tumblr, btw? I didn't realize that was you, but if it is I'd like to follow you!
He probably would have saved Will even if Alana hadn't asked him to, if he'd been able to get free on his own.
Oh, I absolutely believe he wouldn't have allowed Mason or Cordell to hurt Will any further even if Alana hadn't asked. Like you said, he had calmed down by then, and plus if he had a score to settle with Will he wouldn't want anyone else to get to him. If he's hurting Will it's righteous and okay, but anyone else doing it is unacceptable because Will's fate should be in his hands. (After the s3 finale, I can't imagine Hannibal ever threatening Will again. Not seriously.)
Plus, Will wasn't even at home, so there was no chance of Dolarhyde actually hurting Will.
Yes! He didn't intend for Will to die, he just wanted Will's family out of the 'way'. They were distracting him and I'm sure in Hannibal's mind they were filling a space in Will's life that should've been occupied by Hannibal and Abigail. If Hannibal and Abigail couldn't have a 'happily ever after' with Will, no one else should be able to either.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
It was darkly hilarious. Will is just standing there coolly, a major difference to Hannibal in the S2 finale. Hannibal looks very emotional, sad and mad, as he watches Will bleeding out (from his stabbing!). That's the other thing, about Will's becoming--he's getting a lot less emotional, a lot cooler about everything, having non-reactions if you will. Much like Hannibal always has (like, 'oh dead woman on the porch, huh').
a part of Will is enjoying Hannibal being the one to bleed out on the floor even though I don't think he truly wants him dead
Yeah, it's just like a little payback. 'You made me suffer, now I watch you, isn't this fun?'
I wonder how different things would have been if Will had got to shoot Dolarhyde in the head.
He probably would have stayed torn and wouldn't have had his becoming. Though they also probably wouldn't have gone over the cliff, so... As Will said in an earlier season, guns are impersonal. Sure, shooting Hobbs messed with him, but if he's just shot Dolarhyde, I don't think he would have felt the euphoria that he felt killing him a different way.
I think Will is harder to shake in general by s3... he's been through so much that the death of others might still be unpleasant, but it doesn't seem to effect him to the same extent.
I really am going to pay attention on the rewatch of S2 exactly when Will becomes so jaded and just cool with the idea of murder that would have upset him greatly in S1. At first, it's an act to catch Hannibal, but since Will is the ultimate method actor, he really just gets in too deep where the act either becomes him or unlocks something in him. He just starts having these non-reactions to horrific things.
Is that your tumblr, btw? I didn't realize that was you, but if it is I'd like to follow you!j
It is! Follow me if you like, but I generally don't follow back. I do tumblr wrong, lol. Mainly, I just follow blogs that are 100% the thing that I'm interested in, and not blogs that are multifandom. I don't even follow people on my flist (most of them don't even know I have a tumblr). Right now, most of my fandom stuff is all Hannibal, lol.
Though you should check out my 'hannibal lol' tag, which is a collection of all the crack posts that made me laugh.
(After the s3 finale, I can't imagine Hannibal ever threatening Will again. Not seriously.)
I kind of can't either? I feel like they've been there and done that for ever how many years it's been. I think some psychological chess is still on the board, but not so much the really and truly fucking with each other. Also, Will is definitely on a level playing field now, so to speak. He's Hannibal's equal.
They were distracting him and I'm sure in Hannibal's mind they were filling a space in Will's life that should've been occupied by Hannibal and Abigail.
I saw the really creepy suggestion that the line (that I can't remember what episode it's from and this is paraphrased anyway) about a place being made for Abigail in the world meant that Hannibal manipulated Mason into getting rid of Margo and Will's child solely so that he could direct any parental feelings of Will's toward Abigail, when it was revealed that she was alive. Which is SOOOOOO fucked up, but I wouldn't put it past Hannibal.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
What I like about that moment, and this is something I only noticed after my first time seeing that scene, is that Hannibal is actually crying. There's actually a tear rolling down his face when he bends over Will and tells him to "Close your eyes and wade into the quiet of the stream". He didn't want Will to die, it broke his heart to see him hurt, but Hannibal felt it was necessary. (And if you take Will's thoughts in S3 to be fact, then Hannibal wasn't actually trying to kill him, he only wanted him injured. Doesn't make it any less wrong and horrible, but since Will wasn't coming with him...it kind of works out in a fucked up way. No one can say that Will just 'allowed' Hannibal to escape since Hannibal attacked Will too, haha. So many layers to this show.)
God, they're so (beautifully) fucked up.
That's the other thing, about Will's becoming--he's getting a lot less emotional, a lot cooler about everything, having non-reactions if you will.
IA, the longer all this goes on the colder Will becomes. The easier it becomes for him to distance himself from the pain and shock and disgust.
He probably would have stayed torn and wouldn't have had his becoming.
I think you're right, but I am curious as to how he would've dealt with Hannibal. Would he have allowed Hannibal to escape? That's what I think would end up happening, even if he held the gun on him... I don't think he would've shot him knowing that Jack didn't want him back in jail, he was going to need to die for a permanent solution, and I don't think he could kill him. (And have to live with it. In the finale...well, he doesn't even plan on living with it, and if he does, well, they're together.)
I really am going to pay attention on the rewatch of S2 exactly when Will becomes so jaded and just cool with the idea of murder that would have upset him greatly in S1.
Please do! I noticed on my rewatch that his pendulum doesn't even appear until the third episode, and he just seems generally more angry, bitter and distant to the idea of murder. (Until it becomes 'personal' with Katz and Abigail.) The way he deals with saber-tooth guy in s2 is disturbing too.
Follow me if you like, but I generally don't follow back.
That's fine! I am wayyyyyyy multifandom so I wouldn't begrudge you of that; I go through moods, and if you're a Hannibal blog it wouldn't make sense for you to follow me.
I will!
I think some psychological chess is still on the board, but not so much the really and truly fucking with each other.
Certainly! They feel beyond that now. Especially if Will is going to travel with Hannibal now (no matter the extent of Will's 'participation'), I feel like Hannibal would try to encourage Will, not threaten him. They understand each other now.
about a place being made for Abigail in the world meant that Hannibal manipulated Mason into getting rid of Margo and Will's child solely so that he could direct any parental feelings of Will's toward Abigail
Okay, what the fuck. Hannibal totally would do that, though I took the line to mean, "I saved Abigail for you; she no longer has to worry about the legal consequences of her actions, and we can leave and be a family now without worrying too much about our past lives catching up with us." (Well, that's what he DID want...before Will dumped him, lol.)
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
There's actually a tear rolling down his face when he bends over Will and tells him to "Close your eyes and wade into the quiet of the stream". He didn't want Will to die, it broke his heart to see him hurt, but Hannibal felt it was necessary.
It's like his heart is actually breaking in this moment, but he still reacts like Hannibal, and the only option is violence. Though I do kind of agree that he didn't 100% intend Will to die. If he'd wanted Will dead in that moment, he would have slit his throat or cut out his heart to take with him. But, doing what Hannibal did, he also had to know there was a chance Will would die. What he did was in no way just a flesh wound. He only wanted Will sort of dead, lol. Even in that moment, he didn't do all he could have. I feel like Chilton's line is an excellent summary: "Will Graham is alive because Hannibal Lecter likes him that way."
(And have to live with it. In the finale...well, he doesn't even plan on living with it, and if he does, well, they're together.)
I saw something from either Hugh Dancy or Bryan Fuller (ugh, and I can't remember or find it again!) that said that Will was trying to kill them both because he knew there was no place left with humanity for him after that. Which totally fits into my headcanon of Will taking the plunge and then when it didn't result in death, just going with it (and not say, trying to kill himself or Hannibal again).
Especially if Will is going to travel with Hannibal now (no matter the extent of Will's 'participation'), I feel like Hannibal would try to encourage Will, not threaten him. They understand each other now.
I certainly hope so! Surely we are over the 'trying to kill each other' phase. I mean, I feel like that's too shipper-goggles on one hand (going back to the 'but he would never ~hurt Will' thing that turned out to be so so false), because after all the horrible things Hannibal has done, what makes me think that he's going to stop being horrible now? OTOH, if all his horribleness has been to get Will to this point, to 'see' the truth, and Will is finally here, well, job well done, Hanni. Now that Hannibal finally has what he wants, a Will who is a killer and a Will who is with him, surely he wouldn't want to fuck that up.
Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]
I say this every time I get into a new fandom. For a couple of months my followers probably hate the spam, lol.
But I mainly treat my Tumblr like a collection of images I want to have, instead of anything social, lol.
That's how I've always treated it too. Discussing anything on tumblr is too complicated. That and there are so many people on tumblr that singling out someone for a discussion is almost nerve-wracking for me. It's much easier to find people in an old school community.
I feel like Chilton's line is an excellent summary: "Will Graham is alive because Hannibal Lecter likes him that way."
Exactly! That's a great line. (It explains so much.) It makes sense that Hannibal doesn't actually want Will dead, but he still wants to hurt him in a major, significant way, and even though it's entirely possible that doing so might end up killing Will, he can't let him get away without payback.
because he knew there was no place left with humanity for him after that.
So Will recognized that there was no turning back beyond that point, but he still had enough goodness in him to want to stop himself (and Hannibal) before they could 'burn everything down'. It's perfect!
I mean, I feel like that's too shipper-goggles on one hand (going back to the 'but he would never ~hurt Will' thing that turned out to be so so false)
I don't even see it as shipper-goggles because I shipped them even when they were trying to kill each other, lmao, but I think it comes back to what you said about 'Been there, done that'. There's just no need for it anymore. Will should have some struggle, but if the struggle was going to be, "Hannibal and Will constantly trying to kill each other" I would want to throw my hands up and walk away because we do not need that kind of repetition. (And, again, I feel like their personal development should have moved beyond that.) Will should have moved past that now; let's not see the same Will, let's explore the different aspects of the man now that he's finally 'unlocked' them and admitted they exist.