fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3159 ]

[ SECRET POST #3159 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3159 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Knights Errant]

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[HeadOn]

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06. [SPOILERS for Tales of the Abyss]

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07. [WARNING for rape]

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08. [WARNING for sexual assault/harassment]

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09. [WARNING for child sexual abuse]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

it's much more interesting for him to explore that side of himself he's always been attracted to but chose to ignore. And yea, now that he fully understands how good it feels to kill by Hannibal's side, I don't think he can go back to being that person.

And I can even see Will being a 'moral' killer, like only killing people he feels deserve it, other killers, etc. Of course, that still doesn't make it right for him to brutally slay them, but that's why it's dark, lol. Because I do think now that he's killed with Hannibal, now that he knows how good it feels, he can't go back.

I think given his history it wouldn't even be far fetched to assume he could get addicted to it.

In an interview, Fuller even compared Hannibal to a drug for Will. He can't stay away, no matter how hard he tries and once he gets the old taste again, he's back in it (referring to the 3 year separation).

I was actually considering this the other day! That if there's a part of Will that still needs to be good, well, he can convince Hannibal to kill criminals he deems deserving of it. That way Will can still feel like he isn't a TOTAL monster, and Hannibal gets his fix too. It would be a good solution for them, I think. Will would be able to experience that high while still feeling like he's doing a necessary evil.

God,i want this as a fic.

Ooo, I didn't see that particular comparison. It's a potent one, and very true that Will might try to distance himself from Hannibal but once he gets back into his orbit he can barely escape.

I can see Hannibal semi-compromising on who to kill. Though I don't think he'd let Will totally have his own way. I can see Hannibal just going out and coming back with some, er, meat, and giving Will an eyebrow raise as he slaps it down to cook. Like, 'fine if you don't always want to kill with me, but I'm not going to stop'. Then over dinner, Will would eat the meat, but with pointed annoyance, before saying that he read about some interesting murders on Tattle Crime. God, the fucked up everyday arguments these two would have.

But really, if any sort of 'compromise' were reached, I can imagine that Hannibal maybe would choose people to kill that Will wouldn't have a problem with, but that he would like befriend them beforehand and invite them to dinner, and generally fuck with them like he does before he and Will finally kill them. Hannibal is already serial killer royalty, so imagine all the killers who would want to meet him. They'd think they were in the inner circle, never knowing that Hannibal was luring them in for Will, who was biding his time. Hannibal really seems to kill all over the board, it's not like he really has a type (besides anyone who looked at him funny) that he targets. If Will only wanted to kill bad people, I think Hannibal would go with it. At least for a while, as he probably thinks he can work Will up to other things.

But then, I could also be on board with any sort of dark Will. Having Will be a Dexter-like killer might be too easy. There would have to be some other sort of conflict. Like maybe Will makes that compromise with himself, saying he'll only do this to permanently 'catch' people like he was when he was FBI, yet at the same time, it not being enough for him in the end.

You should just give in and write this.

Haha, nah, no pressure.

But it DOES sound incredible! This is exactly the kind of thing I would want from a season 4. (Though, like I said before, a part of me thinks it's almost better if we don't get it so I can't be disappointed. My headcanon of the hypothetical season 4 are perfection, lol.)

I can see Hannibal just going out and coming back with some, er, meat, and giving Will an eyebrow raise as he slaps it down to cook.

Beautiful. Most of my other ships are relatively happy and healthy, so maybe part of what thrills me so much about Hannibal and Will is that they're the exact opposite. 'Normal' people worries wouldn't be such a big thing for them, no, the worries they have would be about "Is this person shitty enough to kill?" and "No Hannibal, we've already killed too many people in this city, the police are going to get suspicious. I know that guy insulted your tie but you've got to let it go."

I can imagine that Hannibal maybe would choose people to kill that Will wouldn't have a problem with, but that he would like befriend them beforehand and invite them to dinner, and generally fuck with them like he does before he and Will finally kill them.

Yes! Hannibal loves to play with his dinner first. Clearly his desire for that isn't just going to evaporate, and I do think Will would enjoy it too.

You're probably right in that Hannibal wouldn't be totally satisfied with such an arrangement (at least not forever), but with spending so much time in Hannibal's presence, I don't think there's any way Will wouldn't eventually lose more and more of his resolve.

My problem is that even though I seem to be having ideas, I have no idea how to capture Hannibal and Will's voices. Everything they say is so poetic and metaphor filled and enigmatic, I'm not sure I can hear it. Other fandoms I've written for, I can almost hear how the characters would say things. Though I haven't even really read any fanfic for Hannibal, besides the odd piece here and there, and I've never written fic for a fandom I hadn't spent at least several months reading fic in. Usually, what happens is that I NEED more of the characters, go start reading fic, and then eventually end up with ideas for my own fic, even though I never intended to start writing in the first place, lol. So obviously the first step here is to go read a ton of fanfic. I've never been driven to read fic for Hannibal, but after the finale, I'm feeling it.

(Though, like I said before, a part of me thinks it's almost better if we don't get it so I can't be disappointed. My headcanon of the hypothetical season 4 are perfection, lol.)

Yeah, I do feel this on a big level. Whether you want dark Will or moral Will, you can have it, and no later season will end up disappointing you. Though perhaps S4 could have a Will who was both dark and moral. I mean, if anyone could do it, Fuller could. I can also see a Will who doesn't enjoy what he does with Hannibal, but needs to do it so badly that he can't help it. That could be another way of having conflict. You can almost see this in the earlier seasons when he empaths stuff. He gets so far into the heads of the killers, and you can tell he's horrified at the same time that he totally occupies their headspace.

But I suppose S4 would be likely to disappoint someone (unless Fuller is some kind of creative genius, which I'm not discounting). It seems pretty clear (to me) given the tease of Argentina which was given earlier in a tweet, and the fact that Fuller mentioned exploring something which hadn't been done in any adaptation, that he was giving Clarice's ending to Will. That's where I see the S3 finale heading. Of course, in the books, that was actually the *ending*, but with a SotL season planned after that here, it wouldn't have been. So even if Will was dark for a season, then what? Kill him? Have him not be able to live like Hannibal after all? Keep him dark? Have him be a 'lawful evil'? IDK. We have no idea what happens to Clarice after she's seen in Argentina with Hannibal. But then, if the show never continues, we have no idea what Will's life is like either. The only difference is that we don't have a definitive 'yes, he left with Hannibal and they're now killing it up.'

Though when I got thinking about how a Clarice could work if the show were to go on, and taking my preference for dark Will into account, I came up with this. What if Hannibal and Will are dark (Will, however dark you want him) and killing people, and Hannibal is captured again, but Will isn't? Maybe Hannibal even made sure Will got away and risked himself. And then Will is just kind of out there, lurking on the sidelines. And then Jack the idiot sends Clarice in to see Hannibal because Jack cannot solve a case on his own (and if they can't use Buffalo Bill, it could even be Will's murders they need Hannibal's input on), and Hannibal and Clarice develop the same weird rapport they do in the movie, but then Hannibal escapes with the ambulance fakeout (as he does) or maybe Will helps him escape, and there's some sort of confrontation between all three of them, but in the end, Hannibal doesn't kill Clarice because it would be rude, and he and Will leave together, and he perhaps calls Clarice later, just to keep things interesting. And Clarice of course is still sort of looking for Hannibal and Will in her spare time because they're the ones that got away. The end. Murder husbands + weird relationship with Clarice. If I ever figure out how to go about writing a Hannibal fic, this would be it.

"No Hannibal, we've already killed too many people in this city, the police are going to get suspicious."

Kind of like this.
http://www.hanniballectermd.com/post/89304741510

I have no idea how to capture Hannibal and Will's voices. Everything they say is so poetic and metaphor filled and enigmatic, I'm not sure I can hear it.

And that's exactly why most Hannibal fic will probably not live up to the show, because the show is so damn unique and superbly written. It would be difficult to recapture the magic of the show with words because so much of what the show focuses on is explained with visual cues. It's a different beast using words than images.

I'm still hoping there's something out there we can enjoy, though!

He gets so far into the heads of the killers, and you can tell he's horrified at the same time that he totally occupies their head-space.

That's true! This makes me think of that line Hannibal had about how Will shouldn't reproduce. That was a nasty little line, but an interesting one. I think he was right, and you're right; Will sometimes sees himself as part monster, and will think so even more now. (Didn't he explain Dolarhyde as a "person with a demon on his back?" or something? He clearly was thinking about Hannibal during that conversation, but maybe he saw some of himself in it too. 'We're beginning to blur' and all that; they're more alike than Will would like to think.)

So even if Will was dark for a season, then what? Kill him?

You know by now how much I want to see Hannibal and Will traveling the world, meeting interesting people and killing them, but this is what I don't want. If it's a choice between what we have now and a season full of that with Will changing his mind, or dying at the end, I think I would rather take the finale as is.

And honestly, if Will DID go on a killing spree with Hannibal for a season then undoubtedly he would deserve a well written death, but the part of me that loves Will is just going, "No, look how awful Hannibal is and he has to live. You can't kill Will, especially now that he and Hannibal have just teamed up."

I also like your idea for Clarice! That's a solid plan you have there, and I think it could work for the show. I would actually really like to see Hannibal risk his freedom for Will, because that's the kind of thing you wouldn't have expected of Hannibal before, you know? But by the finale he's definitely so gone for Will (in whatever way) that him doing so seems possible.

I hope if season 4 happens and Fuller does add Clarice, it's something like this. I wouldn't want Will to be pushed to the side (and I don't think he wants to do that anyway, considering what he's said about s4 so far) to make place for Clarice, I would want them to both share a sense of importance.

Okay, I need to see more of this particular tumblr.

It would be difficult to recapture the magic of the show with words because so much of what the show focuses on is explained with visual cues.

I know. Even if you can get their voices down, the show is such a visual thing. On the one hand, that makes no sense, because all shows are visual things, but this show is even MORE visual than other shows.

But I have started reading all the post-finale fic. I haven't found anything yet that really grabbed me, but I'm enjoying myself. I'm hoping that after the 'immediate coda' period, someone (or a few someones) will start having some more in depth post-finale fic.

If it's a choice between what we have now and a season full of that with Will changing his mind, or dying at the end, I think I would rather take the finale as is.

Yeah, this is me. And I know other people would want Will to come back from darkness. So there would be no pleasing everyone. But I see the finale as Going There, and I wouldn't want to come back from that. But like I said, I don't see Will being exactly like Hannibal, and I do see different ways for him to be dark and still have conflict, to give into these things and not like it, or to enjoy it but hate himself, or to live with Hannibal and like it and hate it at the same time, or to be more particular about who he kills and when.

"No, look how awful Hannibal is and he has to live. You can't kill Will, especially now that he and Hannibal have just teamed up."

If one lives, then the other has to live. That's just how I feel the show has gone.

I would actually really like to see Hannibal risk his freedom for Will, because that's the kind of thing you wouldn't have expected of Hannibal before, you know? But by the finale he's definitely so gone for Will (in whatever way) that him doing so seems possible.

I can just see him figuring that jail is no big deal for him, but it would be for Will (even though Will has also been to jail). Or I can see him just doing it in the moment without thinking, as a reaction to something.

And apparently Fuller said (when addressing whether the cancellation had anything to do with not having the rights to Clarice) that S4 would deal with Will and Hannibal's continuing story, and that SotL wouldn't be until S5 anyway. So he obviously thinks there's a lot more story to do with Hannibal and Will, though since Clarice was mentioned, it seems that Hannibal would get caught again by the end of S4, to set up SotL.

Okay, I need to see more of this particular tumblr.

Man, my favorite posts on Tubmlr have to be the crack ones. I don't go much for crack fic or fluffy fic, but I love me some Hannibal lol posts.

Hannibal is so distinct and unique with visuals though! This show more than almost every other I've seen is heavily visual. I know the show gets called pretentious a lot, lmao, but the fact of the matter is the visuals DO speak very loudly; sometimes they tell a story in ways words can't.

Same. I've found a few fics I've enjoyed, but mostly there's codas. Some stuff is insanely OOC, some is pretty spot on, though not as eloquently written as the show. (Which is no insult to the fanbase, because the show is beautiful and it would be difficult to live up to it.)

I've watched/listened to a few podcasts and reviews since the finale and it seems that most people outside the tumblr fanbase do not want Will to go full dark!side. They all seem to acknowledge and love the finale and even point out how 'romantic' Will and Hannibal's relationship is and how brilliant it is for Will to kill with Hannibal, but Will is so beloved that I think most people have difficulty with the idea of seeing him sullied in that way. Even though he already has been for a long time, seeing it explicitly explored in such a way would be hard for some of the audience. Watching the show again has just reminded me how Will had this in him all along, and Hannibal was a large part of what drew it out of him.

IA! Apparently Fuller does too, so there's that.

Again, it probably says something about me and this particular relationship that I think Hannibal sacrificing his freedom for Will is sweet. For Hannibal it is, anyway.

So we'd get at least one more season of Hannibal on the loose? Though Fuller has been brilliant, I LOVED that we got so much of Hannibal outside jail. Seeing him locked up is interesting in its own way, but I much prefer to see him doing his thing out of jail.

Me too! I can't think of any other fandom that is this dark and yet manages to bring so much humor to it. It's a morbid sense of humor, but it delights me. (The show is the same way though, what with Hannibal and all his 'sly' cannibalism jokes. Mads is such a genius in his portrayal of Hannibal. Even when he isn't making jokes...I'm imagining his face when Will bites Mason's chef, lol. He's smiling and so damn proud. It's hilarious. Oh, and him with poor Chilton's lip in s3, and the comment about him hoping Chilton isn't too ugly. He has such a wicked, rude sense of humor at times, which again...is pretty hilarious considering the whole 'eat the rude' thing.)

Well, today I accidentally wrote post-finale fanfic. Oops.

I've watched/listened to a few podcasts and reviews since the finale and it seems that most people outside the tumblr fanbase do not want Will to go full dark!side.

I can see this. And I had never really thought about the show itself taking Will full darkside before the finale, but in retrospect, it just looks like an obvious ending. Like we said, even early in S3, he was acting waaaaay sketchy.

but Will is so beloved that I think most people have difficulty with the idea of seeing him sullied in that way. Even though he already has been for a long time, seeing it explicitly explored in such a way would be hard for some of the audience.

I was saying to someone else that the show is the most fascinating example of 'love doesn't change the bad guy' that I've ever seen. You know how it is, most media will have an actual villain or just a badboy turn good for the love of a good person. Actually seeing it play out in reverse is incredibly interesting. Will has been sullied for a long time, but I think we're so used to 'right' and 'good' triumphing in the end (even that culminates in murder suicide) that it's hard to consider that going bad might be someone's ending. Especially on a show where going bad never seemed to be the point (unlike say, Breaking Bad, where going bad was the point).

(Though apparently no one has a problem sullying Clarice in that way (Argentina). Then again, that ending for her wasn't in the movie, and the books aren't as widespread.)

Again, it probably says something about me and this particular relationship that I think Hannibal sacrificing his freedom for Will is sweet.

Or maybe murder husbands are continually bickering, and on the night things went wrong, Will pushed Hannibal in front, lol. Hannibal would probably respect him for that, though, especially if Will helped break him out later.

Seeing him locked up is interesting in its own way, but I much prefer to see him doing his thing out of jail.

It's horrible that I actually want him on the loose. But then, it seems that most do in the end, since all the books and movies end that way.

I'm imagining his face when Will bites Mason's chef, lol. He's smiling and so damn proud. It's hilarious.

I saw a hilarious post on Tumblr about this, but I don't seem to have saved it and now I can't find it.

Oh, and him with poor Chilton's lip in s3, and the comment about him hoping Chilton isn't too ugly. He has such a wicked, rude sense of humor at times

Hannibal really gets snarky when he's cornered. You really get a lot of that when he's in jail, but even in S2, he taunts Mason or Mason's men about the man he attacked ("did he soil himself?"). It's like once he has nothing left to pretend about, the civilized gloves come off.

Well, today I accidentally wrote post-finale fanfic. Oops.

And I find this hilarious because I actually read said fic and was thinking, "Oh, this is great!" before I realized it was yours. I had bookmarked it and everything, so when I read this comment I went, "...Wait, was that the Molly fic?" then of course it had been. I'll try to leave a comment on it later, but know that it was beautiful and I encourage any other Hannibal fic you feel up to writing!

but in retrospect, it just looks like an obvious ending

I think dark!Will is obvious in a not-so-pleasant way, but the alternative would have been following the canon more closely and maybe having Molly shoot Dolarhyde or Hannibal staying in jail (or being put back there by Will) and I don't feel like that would be true to this version of the show, or frankly interesting. I like that Fuller wants to keep us on our toes; this was not the 'easy' way out for him, but imo it was the right one.

Will has been sullied for a long time, but I think we're so used to 'right' and 'good' triumphing in the end (even that culminates in murder suicide) that it's hard to consider that going bad might be someone's ending.

Yea, I think you have a point there; people want good to overcome and Will to get better instead of worse. That's an understandable and common way to feel, but when it comes down to it Will not being able to escape his demons, not being able to break the cycle of his fucked up and abusive relationship with Hannibal in such a way that would allow him to keep living his 'peaceful' existence is something that I honestly feel is more realistic. More depressing for sure, but this show has always been dark, you have to go into it expecting that, and I'm glad they kept with it to the end because it feels like a natural progression.

(Though apparently no one has a problem sullying Clarice in that way (Argentina). Then again, that ending for her wasn't in the movie, and the books aren't as widespread.)

I did wonder about that! Like I said, I've listened to some Hannibal podcasts and even the people who have read the books don't usually comment on the Clarice ending. (One did, but the others either forgot it, ignored it, or didn't like it.)

Hannibal would probably respect him for that, though, especially if Will helped break him out later.

Hannibal would definitely respect him for that, but given his reaction to Will's actions in the past I also think it would hurt. If Will is truly going to stay with Hannibal I could imagine Will doing the same, allowing himself to be caught and Hannibal to get away. I mean...again with the "They know" phone call. (Again, Will could help him escape, but you KNOW if Will was caught Hannibal would come for him.)

It's horrible that I actually want him on the loose.

So many things about this show are horrible and yet we love them. I feel this way about Hannibal himself, but I've got to give Fuller and Mads all the credit for making him more than simply 'the devil'. Yes he's an atrocious human being, but he's not just that. And I'll admit, his relationship with Will makes him seem a bit more 'human' and sympathetic. (Again, as bizarre as that is, given all the fucking terrible shit he's done to Will. Something Fuller said about crying and feeling bad for Hannibal when writing the s2 finale comes to mind.)

This fucking show.

It's like once he has nothing left to pretend about, the civilized gloves come off.

Those are some of my favorite Hannibal moments. Whispering "He's in the pantry" in the s2 finale, and all his cannibalism jokes that flew over everyone's heads for so long. If he wasn't so snarky we probably wouldn't be as drawn to his character.

And I find this hilarious because I actually read said fic and was thinking, "Oh, this is great!" before I realized it was yours. I had bookmarked it and everything, so when I read this comment I went, "...Wait, was that the Molly fic?" then of course it had been.

Aw, thank you! I ended up wanting to do a scene of someone (who wasn't Hannibal and who Will wasn't there to kill) looking at Will from the outside, and Molly seemed like the most likely person for that, lol. Also, I'm still unsure how dark I see Will (as in, dark, or reeeeeally dark), and having him be enigmatic and just sort there was a good way not to delve into that, lol. Actually, if I ever try writing my S4 fic idea, this could still be a scene in it.

I did wonder about that! Like I said, I've listened to some Hannibal podcasts and even the people who have read the books don't usually comment on the Clarice ending. (One did, but the others either forgot it, ignored it, or didn't like it.)

I'm going to have to read the Hannibal book someday, just to see how that played out. It feels odd for Clarice to run away with Hannibal because she was so morally upstanding. Will (show Will, at least), not so much.

Yes he's an atrocious human being, but he's not just that. And I'll admit, his relationship with Will makes him seem a bit more 'human' and sympathetic. (Again, as bizarre as that is, given all the fucking terrible shit he's done to Will.

The whole show is a study in contradictions, but it's just so well done. Because if Hannibal was never anything but the bad baddie over here, cackling to himself, we wouldn't find him so compelling. It's that he has these desires for connection, and even weaknesses, that make him interesting. And of course, it's interesting to see how his 'love' plays out, because it definitely doesn't take the typical route of 'the one I love is the one I'm different to, the one I'd never hurt.' And speaking of contradictions, I still can't get over how the killing of Dolarhyde was filmed. It was actually beautiful. It was plenty gory, but wasn't gory like other gore on the show, like eye gouging or face eating or meat wings. It was actually beautiful, and I have no idea how they pulled that off.

Whispering "He's in the pantry" in the s2 finale, and all his cannibalism jokes that flew over everyone's heads for so long.

"In the pantry." (Where I keep all my food) lol.

looking at Will from the outside, and Molly seemed like the most likely person for that

Oh, Molly is the best for that. While I'm satisfied with what we got in the show (and think it makes sense that past a certain point, Will might not see or talk to Molly again; he might want to spare her the pain of the upcoming 'separation', it might be best to leave her with mostly positive memories of him), I definitely wouldn't mind getting some deleted scenes with her. Or just one. I wish fandom would do more Molly/Will interaction. (And not the "Hannibal goes to kill Molly" kind, because there's no way even dark!Will would be okay with that, and Hannibal would not want to anger Will in that way. I doubt he would even broach the subject; he has Will, what does he need to mess with Molly for?)

So yea, if you write that fic I'll be all over it! It's a nice premise.

It feels odd for Clarice to run away with Hannibal because she was so morally upstanding.

I think that's the exact problem people have with it; they feel it to be OOC. And I think she might be drugged by Hannibal through at least some of it, so I'm not sure how much agency she has through that, but a lot of people see to have the same problem with Will and Hannibal...they see Will as too good to join up with him. I won't deny that Will has a lot of goodness in him, but s3 Will is far from s1 Will; there's goodness, but there's definitely not only goodness. (Sometimes I wonder if people try to ignore all the darkness in Will because they love him so much and like Will, don't want to admit it's there.)

Because if Hannibal was never anything but the bad baddie over here, cackling to himself, we wouldn't find him so compelling.

And this is why despite Hannibal being awful, he's one of the villains that I like the most. I can acknowledged that he's awful, but he's so much more than that. Villains are often so one-note and boring, and Hannibal is the exact opposite. He has an odd, sick kind of charm distinctly his own.

because it definitely doesn't take the typical route of 'the one I love is the one I'm different to, the one I'd never hurt.'

I guess this is why some people can't ship Hannibal/Will and don't like the ending, because they aren't okay with how fucked up they are and how 'poorly' (there's no word for how horrible some of the things Hannibal does to Will are) Hannibal treats him. Some of those people might be more okay with it if Hannibal DID treat Will differently; if he would never hurt him. That's not how Hannibal is though, and not how Hannibal sees his treatment of Will.

It was actually beautiful.

This is one of those things you have to be there for. Trying to explain how two men ganging up to murder a third in such a bloody, violent death ballet is beautiful would most likely make you sound unstable and demented, lmao. It IS though; the shooting, the music, how intimate it is. It's a culmination of Hannibal and Will's entire relationship and Will's struggle, and it's presented in the most primal, natural way possible. God, the song was so perfect for that scene; I've listened to it so much since the finale and can't get over how absolutely breathtaking the entire last scene was. The presentation is incredible.

And I think she might be drugged by Hannibal through at least some of it, so I'm not sure how much agency she has through that

Yeah, I've never read the book, so I'm not 100% sure either. I know he drugs her for the dinner with Krendler, and he drugs her and tries to get her to actually be Mischa or something, but even drugged, she tells him hell no to that. Then they leave together? But at the end, Barney sees them together in Argentina. Though obviously we have no idea of how influenced she is by outside things like drugs then. Either way, if she's drugged, it's a bad ending for her, or if she's there willingly, that just seems like a complete contradiction of her whole character. Whereas with Will, I definitely see a lot of evidence for it waaaaay before the finale. His moral fiber has been sliding for a while.

(Sometimes I wonder if people try to ignore all the darkness in Will because they love him so much and like Will, don't want to admit it's there.)

I think that could be part of it? It's easy to see him as the 'good' to Hannibal's bad, and if you had asked me before this season, I would have said that anything dark that Will did wasn't *really* him or was just him playing the game (and hating it, not getting any enjoyment out of it). However, now? Oh yeah, Will is really having a battle with himself, and it's a really hard fight.

because they aren't okay with how fucked up they are and how 'poorly' (there's no word for how horrible some of the things Hannibal does to Will are) Hannibal treats him

Hannibal/Will officially wins Most Fucked Up Ship award. How can anyone else even compete. At first, it's one sided abusive, but now I'd say it's equally abusive, as Will has become Hannibal's equal and trying to murder each other seems just another day in the life. In S1, it really was 'poor Will!' Now, I don't really feel sorry for Will, because he's just as bad. The fact that that makes them perfect for each other is just wrong, but there you go.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

elaminator - 2015-09-20 13:27 (UTC) - Expand

Anyway, I think Will would actually be a different type of killer than Hannibal would. Hannibal enjoys the long term mind fuck. Even with people he intends to dispose of like Gideon or Bedelia, he wants to play a long game. I'm not sure Will would. I think Will might be in it just for the kill. They're alike as far as darkness, but I'm not sure how alike they'd be as far as methods. I can see Will being the more direct 'hunt, stalk, kill' type.

I could see Will enjoying the whole 'whining and dining' thing on some level (maybe largely because of how much Hannibal enjoys it), but I'm not sure he would relish it as much as Hannibal. Hannibal lives for it, but Will just seems...well, look at how much he enjoyed brutally murdering Dolarhyde, lmao. I don't think he would've loved it anymore if they sat down to dinner first.

Maybe the actual act of killing would be the part that excites him, but he would sit through the other stuff because Hannibal 'needed' it.

Btw, I'm not sure I've ever had a conversation this long on f!s and I'm kind of amused it's about Hannibal and Will's murderous globe trotting.

Okay, I've got to sign in because it's becoming increasingly hard to keep track of our conversation, lol. I usually just go anon because I never really comment.

I can see Will enjoying the wining and dining, but as for the months long mindfuckery that Hannibal seems to enjoy, it doesn't strike me as his thing. Like if Hannibal brought in some brainwashed girl to keep in the basement for two years, Will would be like HELL NO. Or getting more cracky, "if you get to keep her, then I want a dog". Though on a serious note, I kind of doubt Hannibal needs such long term guest/prisoners now, since he has everything he's wanted in Will.

look at how much he enjoyed brutally murdering Dolarhyde, lmao. I don't think he would've loved it anymore if they sat down to dinner first

Yeah. And he's done some other stuff this season that in retrospect makes him look really suspect. I mean, what was with the murder art he made of Chiyoh's prisoner? Who was for? It was something Hannibal would never even see. If he just did that for HIMSELF, um, that definitely says that he feels a need to do these things, and can even enjoy them. Or maybe he doesn't enjoy them, but the need is to great to ignore. The more I look at this season, the more I see Will's darkness being released.

Now I feel bad for making you log in! If you want to stop replying to any point that's fine! I do tend to get carried away sometimes...and I don't think I've ever had an in-depth discussion about Hannibal in f!s before. You caught me at the right/wrong time.

Ooo, yea, even being darker and more open to Hannibal's suggestions I don't think Will would want to keep a long term hostage. I feel like that would be a touch too far. (Maybe Hannibal would tease him about it, lol.) Will should totally try to get Hannibal to okay a dog. (Though Hannibal anywhere hear a sweet, innocent animal kind of freaks me out tbh.)

I kind of doubt Hannibal needs such long term guest/prisoners now, since he has everything he's wanted in Will

That seems accurate. Things would change for Hannibal now that he has Will, but he would also be much...happier. He's always worked alone before, but now he has a partner in crime, and one that he's been longing for quite a while at that. I'd be interested to see how they get along in a day to day relationship.

what was with the murder art he made of Chiyoh's prisoner? Who was for?

You know, I did think he did that for himself but also wondered if it didn't also serve as a weird sort of tribute to Hannibal. (Considering the prisoners connection to him.)

Will was really dark this season. He was manipulating people left and right and making dodgy comments. (A lot of his scenes with Bedelia were so hostile, and then there was that bit with Pazzi where he asked Pazzi how he knew he was on his side. I wasn't even sure he was on Pazzi's side. I do wonder how much he told Dolarhyde, too.)

Oh, it's no big deal. I probably should have logged in a long time ago, just to keep track of things. I've commented signed in on the comm before now, here and there; I just don't actively participate in this comm that much so I usually don't bother. No need to stop, I'm glad to have someone to talk about the finale with, especially regarding dark Will, lol.

even being darker and more open to Hannibal's suggestions I don't think Will would want to keep a long term hostage

Plus, I imagine them either lying really low where no one knows they're alive, or they're known to be alive and so can't stay in one place very long. Not exactly good hostage taking. I mean, you need an established murder basement for that sort of thing. OTOH, Hannibal is obviously filthy rich, so who knows how much real estate he owns?

But speaking on whether they're alive, I imagine eventually it would come out, but the real question is, how long would it take someone to even find where they 'died'? I'm assuming Hannibal's house was not the plan, so how would Jack or anyone know where to find them at all? The house was even pretty isolated, so it would be a while before someone noticed Dolarhyde's body.

(Though Hannibal anywhere hear a sweet, innocent animal kind of freaks me out tbh.)

I feel like he wouldn't have much interest in animals. After all, they can't be rude or really offend him, and cutting them up would probably be boring. He wouldn't want to eat them. But do you remember in S2, when he drugged Mason, and we saw from Mason's POV that Mason was about to stab a pig? Hannibal stops him. I only realized after the fact that those 'pigs' Mason saw were Will's dogs. Even Hannibal knows that Will will accept drugging Mason and getting him to eat his own face, but that Will would not accept Hannibal letting Mason kill his dogs.

You know, I did think he did that for himself but also wondered if it didn't also serve as a weird sort of tribute to Hannibal. (Considering the prisoners connection to him.)

Yeah, but that's still really messed up, lol. Who just cuts up a body and makes murder art as tribute? Whatever Will's reasoning was, HE wanted to do it. He didn't NEED to do it, like he did in S2, when he was trying to prove himself to Hannibal.

He was manipulating people left and right and making dodgy comments. (A lot of his scenes with Bedelia were so hostile

I could NOT figure out why he was so hostile to Bedelia. What did she ever do to him? Like, I get why he's hostile to Freddie, makes perfect sense. But Bedelia? He's barely interacted with her. Now, in retrospect, I can only assume it was some sort of weird displaced jealousy, or his own self-loathing projected onto Bedelia. It would be beyond messed up for him to be jealous, but I'm not sure I'd put anything past the show at this point. Though I do lean toward self-loathing. Will sees Bedelia as someone who went with Hannibal, knowing what he was. And he knows that he wants to and hates himself for it, so takes it out on her.

and then there was that bit with Pazzi where he asked Pazzi how he knew he was on his side.

I thought that was creepy even at the time.

I never thought I'd say it but I adore dark!Will. In season one I was very against the idea of such a thing, and although I definitely enjoyed that he could still have those moments while not fully losing himself to them, I wasn't sure how I felt about him going “completely" dark in season two either. Season three however...worked for me on every level. It was such a natural progression, and frankly a bit of a slippery slope that I had no trouble believing it.

Hmm, I hadn't considered that Hannibal might have other homes, but it's certainly possible! (Probably even likely, given his love of all things fancy. He might have a few houses in beautiful, far off corners of the world.) I had expected that Hannibal and Will would need to go on the run, it would be safer that way, but now you've got me thinking Hannibal could already have a backup plan and a place they can stay.

That crossed my mind as well. I'm sure as soon as the ambush happened Jack had people out looking for them, but with how quickly he agreed to Will's plan... He doesn't expect them to survive. (Fuller said this too, that Jack assumes Will might die with Hannibal and that it's a reasonable sacrifice. Poor Molly... (If she had just asked Will to stay, maybe things would've been different, at least for a while longer.) But yea, eventually they would find Hannibal's house, but it might take a few days? Long enough for Will and Hannibal to escape despite their injuries.

I think you're right in that Hannibal wouldn't be into killing or eating dogs, but something about the imagery of him around them is freaking me out anyway. Maybe the fact that he feed some of Mason's face to Will's dogs. Of course Will put a quick stop to that, and I don't think Hannibal would risk such a thing again now that he has him for good, but... It's just a general feeling of being unsettled, lmao. Maybe he would even grow to like them, though. (Through Will.)

You will get no argument from me about how screwed up Will's murder art was. That this is something he did on his own free will is pretty telling.

In regards to Bedelia, I think it's a bit of both. You know Will wanted to run off with Hannibal but he wouldn't allow himself, and Bedelia did it with full consent and came out of it unscarred. Like Will says, he sure as hell didn't get away from Hannibal unscarred, so maybe there's a part of Will that wonders why Hannibal wouldn't let him get away without harm, but would Bedelia. Jealousy through that, at least partially. (Though of course, Hannibal feels betrayed by Will, and as Bedelia says, “My relationship with Hannibal is not as passionate as yours".)

I think it was supposed to be, since it really doesn't seem obvious at the time. Up to that point Will clearly wants to see Hannibal again, even seems to long for it, and it doesn't even feel vengeful at the time. Sure he might be holding onto some bitterness and anger, but he also seems to miss Hannibal. (The way he talks about him to Abigail.) All Pazzi sees is a man who had a close relationship with Hannibal who Hannibal brutally stabbed, trying to find him. The fact that Hannibal left him a heart and also Will seems to desperately want to see (when he thinks Hannibal is in the catacombs) is frightening. (Will isn't scared to go down there, and for someone who had went through what he went through that's something else.) And lastly, Will also all but tells him that Hannibal is going to kill him but when he goes down anyway doesn't seem all that concerned. Will does not care that much.

Edited 2015-09-02 11:48 (UTC)

Season three however...worked for me on every level. It was such a natural progression, and frankly a bit of a slippery slope that I had no trouble believing it.

The early episodes of season three, where Will admitted he wanted to go with Hannibal, where he almost seemed to be regretting what was destroyed between them, where he just sat in Hannibal's kitchen and moped, plus the manipulative darkness he had once he got to Italy, made me think he was really sliding into Hannibal's world. Then he tries to kill him in Italy, though now that seems like another last ditch effort to break the bond between them than that he really wanted to do it. I was surprised when it first happened, because he spent so much time almost mentally harping on what happened in the S2 finale, when he didn't even want Hannibal to go to jail, and now he's going to kill him? But looking at it in light of Will having this battle within himself, it makes more sense. He really is sliding.

I had expected that Hannibal and Will would need to go on the run, it would be safer that way, but now you've got me thinking Hannibal could already have a backup plan and a place they can stay.

On the run for Hannibal does not seem to mean that he sacrifices his fancy lifestyle. We never saw him wearing a hoodie and eating at McDonald's, lol. Like, he manages to go from the S2 bloodbath, to sitting in a first class seat bound for Italy. Then he kills someone there and sets up a new fancy life. But given his secret house in the finale, I wouldn't be surprised if he has similar boltholes. We've seen him plan ahead, and he's smart enough to know that getting caught sometime was a possibility.

Maybe he would even grow to like them, though. (Through Will.)

If he could train them to attack people, perhaps. He'd probably get a kick out of that.

Like Will says, he sure as hell didn't get away from Hannibal unscarred, so maybe there's a part of Will that wonders why Hannibal wouldn't let him get away without harm, but would Bedelia.

Y'know, if Will really has gone dark, this could explain why he would be a willing participant when Bedelia is served up.

Then he tries to kill him in Italy, though now that seems like another last ditch effort to break the bond between them than that he really wanted to do it.

I think you're on the money with that, because he spent way too long thinking about Hannibal and trying (not to mention wanting) to understand him to truly want him dead. (Plus, remember Hannibal's "I gave you a rare gift and you didn't want it." Will says "Didn't I?" He wouldn't have warned Hannibal about Jack if he didn't want him to escape; he wouldn't have warned him if he didn't care for Hannibal, and after Hannibal stabbed him in the stomach he wouldn't continue thinking wistfully about what might have been.)

And when he sees Hannibal again for the first time and they have that moment where Hannibal says, "If I saw you every day to the end of time I would always remember this moment" (didn't get that word by word, but whatever; that shit was full of love) and they smile at each other. That was the happiest Will has looked in almost the entire series. (IIRC.)

Plus...er, maybe he was simply going to injure Hannibal and try to get him back to Jack. That seems unlikely, but might be what he had in mind? (Either way, he was desperate to not become him. He could feel how close he was.)

We never saw him wearing a hoodie and eating at McDonald's, lol.

He would probably rather go to jail then live that sort of life, so you have a point. I can't even imagine Hannibal in a hoodie...that's insane. My brain can't process it. And the thing is, it would make sense for him to completely change his look and style of living, but of course to him it's so important that I don't think anything could stop him.

Ooo, attack dogs would be something. I wonder how Will would feel about that.

I truly think Will's bitchiness towards Bedelia stems from jealousy. She keeps taunting Will too, with the comments about being Hannibal's bride, etc. (Even though she's terrified of what Hannibal might do to her, I think she feels some of it too. She liked Hannibal's attention, when it was the good kind.)

You said you wanted to re-watch the show, right? Have you started? I'm on about episode 10 now, and loving it.

Full comment coming soon, but I did and I am on episode 9! I'm writing up notes to make a LJ post after I finish the season, if you want to join me for discussion later!

And I've got a friend who's just watching it for the first time. I think she's hooked. :)

I love that you got someone else into the show! Maybe they'll want to analyze the hell out of it with you when they finish too!

And you know I do. I'm going to go ahead and add you here on DW to keep 'track' of you (hope that's okay? tell me if it isn't) and if you'll link me to your LJ post when you finish I'll def comment! Now I wish I had made notes so we could compare.

I'm about to finish season 1 again, and I'm so confused by Hannibal, lmao. I feel like I understand Hannibal and his motivations more in s3 but I think part of it is just that Hannibal is such a fucked up person that he can simultaneously be attracted to Will and care about Will while also setting him up for murder and allowing him to struggle with illness that makes him think he's crazy.

And Bedelia...IDK what's up with Bedelia. Does she even know he's a cannibal at this point? They seem to always be skirting around the topic, and clearly she knows Hannibal isn't 'normal', she's made that person suit comment already, but does she know all the details? I can't remember, but the way Hannibal still seems to be playing her ("Oh, I was attacked by a patient, I was so shook up that I closed office for two days", "Oh, I'm so concerned for Will, I hope he doesn't go crazy even though I'm totes withholding knowledge that would allow him to be treated and get better".)

Bedelia says herself that he only shows her so much, but I suppose on some level he could mean it?

This fucking show. Poor Will. Poor, poor Will.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

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Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

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Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

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Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

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Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

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He wouldn't have warned Hannibal about Jack if he didn't want him to escape; he wouldn't have warned him if he didn't care for Hannibal, and after Hannibal stabbed him in the stomach he wouldn't continue thinking wistfully about what might have been

I do think in S2 (even though we learn in S3 that Will didn't know what he was going to say until Hannibal picked up the phone) that Will just wanted Hannibal to escape. I'm not sure he wanted to go with him then, he just didn't want to fulfill the plan that Jack had. In retrospect, he says that part of him wanted to go, but I'm not quite sure he was there in the moment in S2. But that will be something to pay attention to and think about on the rewatch. But yeah, if he didn't really have some feelings of connection, he wouldn't be mooning over Hannibal (romantically or platonically) after Hannibal literally gutted him).

(didn't get that word by word, but whatever; that shit was full of love)

I KNOW. And Will looks really happy, too. Hannibal obvs does.

And then in the street afterward, Will pulls a knife on him. Granted, we didn't get to see him do anything with it, since Chiyoh took him out, so we don't know how far Will would have been able to go. But we have the 'you dropped your forgiveness' line from Hannibal.

What do you think of Hannibal taking a saw to Will's head after that? I really didn't like it upon first watching, and I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about it, given that in the books/movies, that act was inflicted upon someone Hannibal cared nothing for. I mean, I have no problem with the idea of Hannibal wanting to eat Will, but that just seemed suddenly extreme? IDK. Especially since in the next episode, he's back to saving Will from getting his face cut off and not eating him. Murder husbands are complicated, what can I say.

One thing I'm going to pay attention to while rewatching S2 is Will's nonreaction to things. I saw it pointed out on Tumblr that Will has a lot of freakouts and upset faces to crime scenes in S1, but by the time Mason is eating his own nose, Will just has a really cool, icy face most of the time. I think that carries into S3 as well.

In retrospect, he says that part of him wanted to go, but I'm not quite sure he was there in the moment in S2. But that will be something to pay attention to and think about on the rewatch.

I'm excited to rewatch season 2 for this reason! I feel like either would make sense, that Will either didn't fully realize he wanted to run away with Hannibal at the time, or that he did actually acknowledge it but was so conflicted about it that he would never have been able to. In S3 he's clearly had lots of time to think about his feelings, but in the moment he just doesn't want Hannibal to be caged. I suppose you could even say he warns Hannibal because he doesn't want Hannibal to hurt his friends, but I don't think it's just that; Will is in too deep by that point.

It's a sad commentary on Will Graham's life that the happiest he's ever been was when meeting up with the man who sent him to jail, shanked him and tried to kill his friends/colleagues. It's very telling too, just how screwed up poor Will is and how much he craves the kind of attention and understanding that only Hannibal can give him.

"You dropped your forgiveness" is such a great line, lmao. That is true...it's certainly possible Will had the same idea as Hannibal, that to completely forgive Hannibal he would have to kill him. (And again, if you take it that way it shows just how alike Hannibal and Will can be.) I guess it could also be a straightforward, "Hannibal is such a monster that if I don't kill him he's going to continue to slaughter", type thing, but again with Pazzi from earlier in the season... he doesn't even seem particularly concerned about his fate, he almost seems 'playful' when warning him.

If he would have been able to actually go through with killing Hannibal or not...we'll never know, but I'm going to say no. He could've let Dolarhyde kill Hannibal, but then again he must have known he couldn't take on Dolarhyde alone, and he wouldn't have wanted Dolarhyde to escape. But then you have to take into consideration that Will probably could've pushed Hannibal off the cliff without going over it as well, but he didn't want to because at that point he was so connected to Hannibal that it was impossible for him to separate them.

Murder husbands ARE complicated! I'm not entirely sure what to think about the saw either. Hannibal is so happy to see and connect with Will again, then he almost immediately goes straight back to "You look delicious, gonna eat you." A large part of me believes that if Will hadn't pulled the knife, Hannibal would've forgiven Will. He wouldn't have tried to kill Will again if Will hadn't acted first. If at that point Will wanted to actually 'run away with him', Hannibal would've gladly went with it; he would've let bygones be bygones. Since Will did indeed try to 'betray' him again, Hannibal feels that Will will ALWAYS do so, that he'll never be able to completely give up on his good nature, and that he has to take Will out of the picture once and for all or this will keep happening. I don't feel like he was happy about it, but it was maybe something he felt like he had to do, you know? Will had rejected him one too many times.

As for saving Will next episode, well...you know how much Hannibal cares about Will. In his own fucked up way, Will is the only thing he loves and cherishes. Seeing Will almost harmed by someone else probably infuriated him; look at his face when Dolarhyde stabbed Will in the face. If Hannibal hurts Will, well, that's one thing, but by that point I think anyone else hurting Will isn't acceptable. (Sending Dolarhyde after Will's family isn't quite the same in Hannibal's mind I think, because he orchestrated that. It still counts as his victory.) Plus, he gets to see Will take a chunk out of Mason's cook...he gets another glimpse of Will's 'potential'. I think it's one of those things where he wants Will to come to his full potential; Will is his weakness in a way, and he lets him get away with things he wouldn't from others. When it comes down to it, it's easier for him to forgive Will.

Ooo, thank you for pointing that out to me! I'm going to pay attention to that too. Also, I think you might've mentioned this at some point, but his pendulum is all but gone in s3. I think anyway. He doesn't have as much use for it in s3 anyway, but that's still very telling. I wonder how his pendulum comes into play in s2.