fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3159 ]

[ SECRET POST #3159 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3159 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Knights Errant]

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[HeadOn]

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06. [SPOILERS for Tales of the Abyss]

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07. [WARNING for rape]

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08. [WARNING for sexual assault/harassment]

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09. [WARNING for child sexual abuse]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #451.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

OP.

That entire scene with Bedelia seemed so suspect, and then there was, "I don't know if I can save myself. Maybe that's just fine." The look on his face, the sound of his voice...it seemed like he had come to terms with the fact that he's not the same person

Yeah, there is that. And I think it's Will leading up to what he feels is coming. For me, the defining moment of Change With No Return was the moment after Hannibal had delivered the second axe strike to Dolarhyde, and he and Will are circling Dolarhyde, and this look passes between them, and it's like Will goes from fighting for survival to finding pleasure in it.

Though I'm 100% sure Will was supposed to as well because Brian mentioned season four exploring a vastly different dynamic with Hannibal and Will than what audiences are used to.

While part of me would LOVE to see S4 with Hannibal and Will totally being evil together, the other part of me is glad this is the end, because I just want to imagine them out there, with no coming back around on Will's part or ending up in jail on either of their parts. Like, I'd be too afraid that S4 would try to restore the status quo by the end, but the status is not quo. It should never be quo again. I honestly don't know how Clarice could fit into this universe at this point, as Will has basically got her book ending. Though it makes a hell of a lot more sense for him here than it make for Clarice in the book, IMO.

See, I've seen people say that maybe Bedelia snapped and amputated herself, but that seems unlikely even for this show. How would she have prettied herself up, set the table, then cut and cooked her leg, etc

Yeah. Plus, yeah, who would serve her, and the meat on the table was still steaming, like it was just put there. Not to mention that we the audience know this is exactly what he did to Gideon, but I don't think she would know that, so why would she do it exactly like that? And you have to be a practiced chef to make food look that good; I mean, that's a table layout that you can't pull off your first time cooking, lol. And she looked drugged, and there was no wheelchair or walking device anywhere near her chair. It seems pretty clear that she was put there. Even on this show, I don't know how she could have done that to herself, or WHY. She's even called herself a survivor in an earlier season. She would fight as hard as she could to live, she wouldn't give up and offer herself on a plate. Honestly, this theory just seems like an excuse to think anything other than that Will and Hannibal survived and are now killing people together.

Hannibal had delivered the second axe strike to Dolarhyde, and he and Will are circling Dolarhyde, and this look passes between them

Ooo, yes, that look! I didn't think of it exactly that way, but I did believe that in that moment Hannibal and Will shared something, and it urged Will on. What you said makes perfect sense. (Especially considering Will's "It's beautiful" afterward.)

I haven't read the books (though now I sort of feel like I should; doubt I will though, given how flaky I am with trying new things) but I have heard that Will got some of what probably would've been Clarice's scenes, had she been introduced. This is just as well for me. I feel like Brian spent so long building up Hannibal and Will that even if there was a season 4, Clarice probably wouldn't appear. (And if she did, her role would probably be significantly changed.) However, I doubt we'll get a season 4 regardless. I'm with you on this; I like the ending as is. Seeing evil!Will WOULD be quite fascinating, but at the same time I like how open-ended the finale was. This show was so damn dark, and to end this way with Hannibal and Will teaming up to become an almost unstoppable force...it's bleak, but bleak in a way that works. And is kind of exciting, as it is depressing.

Yeaaaaaaaaa, the Gideon thing is telling too. Plus, she might know how to cook, but we don't know if she has that kind of skill. Even if she does she's clearly drugged or out of sorts and probably wouldn't have been able to get herself back in her chair after setting the table. (Like you said, without assistance.) And for her to go to all that trouble to escape Hannibal earlier in the season, and hell, for her to freak out earlier in the episode at the thought of Hannibal coming for her...it just doesn't add up. Even if she could somehow manage all of that, there isn't any reason for her to. (And again with the knife she takes from the table to set in her lap. There's nothing on her plate, why wouldn't she have anything on her plate? Why else would she be hiding a knife while looking freaked out?)

I know some people are super upset at the thought of Will going dark-side, but Will has been on this path for a long time. There's def been hints, he's just now crossing the finish line, lol.

OP.

I haven't read the books either, but I've seen the movies, and I know the differences between the Hannibal movie and the Hannibal book (which sounds like complete crack) regarding Clarice's story ending.

I'm with you on this; I like the ending as is. Seeing evil!Will WOULD be quite fascinating, but at the same time I like how open-ended the finale was.

It's amazing how much it felt like a series finale. Fuller has said (probably based on his other TV experience, lol) that he's written each season so that the finale could work as a series finale if they didn't get renewed, but I never felt this sense of completion with S1 or S2 finales. I really don't need any more. Sure, seeing how they got from the cliff to calling on Bedelia would be interesting, but it didn't leave me with all the questions that the S2 finale did, for instance. Or the S1 finale, where I was desperate to see where it went from there.

Plus, she might know how to cook, but we don't know if she has that kind of skill.

Few people do, that aren't chefs by profession. When Hannibal cooks, it's an event! :)

And for her to go to all that trouble to escape Hannibal earlier in the season, and hell, for her to freak out earlier in the episode at the thought of Hannibal coming for her...it just doesn't add up.

This, basically. She was pissed and terrified when Will told her of the plan of letting Hannibal escape. It makes no sense for her to do this to herself, and I don't think she physically or practically could.

I know some people are super upset at the thought of Will going dark-side, but Will has been on this path for a long time. There's def been hints, he's just now crossing the finish line, lol.

Despite all of the dark hints this season, I really never expected this. Every time Will seemed about to come around to Hannibal's view, or seem like he regretted not leaving with Hannibal in S2, it was followed up with him attempting to murder Hannibal. So I was kind of like, 'he's acting dark, but he can't quite seem to get there.' Well, he finally got there. I said before the finale that it would be great if at some hypothetical point in the future seasons we'll never get, that Will should get Clarice's ending, because it would be coming full circle. I never expected that THIS season would end like that, but I'm thrilled that it did.

Poor Brian, he's used to cancelation by this point. I've heard that bit about him wanting each finale to be satisfactory but agree that s1 and s2 wouldn't have been without a continuation. I still think they were incredible season finales, but they left me wanting more. This felt final in a way the others episodes didn't, and left me with a clear picture of Hannibal and Will's fucked up future. I definitely wouldn't mind hearing a bit more about Brian's ideas for s4 (And hope he does discuss them at some point), but if it doesn't get filmed I'll be fine.

I checked the tumblr tag again this morning and so many people are still on the “Bedelia did this to herself" train. Idgi. Even if she assumed Hannibal was coming for her and wanted to attempt to placate him by offering him her leg, I don't think it's possible. How would she know when he was coming? What if she cut her leg off and Hannibal showed up a month later? Her meat wouldn't stay good for that long... She would have to sacrifice something else. As unlikely as surviving the fall seems it still seems more plausible to me than that theory.

I can see why you would feel that way, because Will flirted with darkness for a long time but ultimately didn't want to let it get the best of him. I wasn't entirely sure how the season would end, but after hearing Brian's comments about next season I assumed this MIGHT happen. Had Will simply tried to shank Hannibal again it would've been repetitive and disappointing, lol. I'm glad the show didn't “play it safe".

OP.

This felt final in a way the others episodes didn't, and left me with a clear picture of Hannibal and Will's fucked up future.

It did feel final (because of the 'end of a journey' aspect), and at the same time felt very open ended. Will has embraced the darkness and joined Hannibal, but without further seasons, I'm free to imagine whatever reign of elegant terror I want for them.

I checked the tumblr tag again this morning and so many people are still on the “Bedelia did this to herself" train. Idgi.

Yeah, I don't know. I never would have even considered that as a possibility from viewing the scene. It doesn't make sense on so many levels. And I don't think 'she went crazy and that's why she did it even if it doesn't make sense' really works, either. If living with Hannibal for eight months didn't drive her to madness, I don't think she's going to fall into it three years later just because he escapes.

And yeah, surviving the fall is unlikely, but this show does that, and obviously if there were a S4, this was still going to be the finale, so in that case, they would have had to survive. But I don't know how to read that last scene in any other way than that they did survive and had come for her. If they had just gone over the cliff, the end, it would be more debatable.

I'm free to imagine whatever reign of elegant terror I want for them

I've never experienced this fandom's fic, but this is exactly what I want from it. I'm afraid I'm going to end up disappointed when I look because I've heard there's an alarmingly large amount of fluff for a fandom with such a dark nature, and I want excellent fic that's as fucked up as the show itself.

If living with Hannibal for eight months didn't drive her to madness, I don't think she's going to fall into it three years later just because he escapes.

Good point! I suppose one might say that since she lived with Hannibal for so long she knows exactly what he's capable of and the certainty of knowing he would come for her was too much, but again, I don't buy it.

Re: Bedelia: Thought you would appreciate this, if you haven't seen it already.
https://twitter.com/mutzko/status/637822604481425408

I did, but I'm glad to see it again! (And pleased you thought of me! Thanks!)

Did you also see the art of the meal/table settings? It both pointed out that Hannibal was the cook (Which... Obvious enough to us) and that Bedelia was given oysters again, lol. Since Fuller also made a point to say Will and Hannibal are both alive in interviews and that there are three table settings I think it's as good as canon that Will is joining them at dinner. I guess the only thing debatable is if he wants to (Since Fuller did say the cliff was a last ditch effort by Will to save himself, since he did indeed want to join Hannibal and knew their survival would equal losing himself to Hannibal/the darkness completely) or if Hannibal is forcing him too.

Unless we get another season and it shows us otherwise, I'm going to believe since his attempt at killing them failed, he's willingly participating.

I'm glad he discussed all this though, so that people realize Bedelia wasn't cutting herself.

I didn't see the table settings.

I guess the only thing debatable is if he wants to (Since Fuller did say the cliff was a last ditch effort by Will to save himself, since he did indeed want to join Hannibal and knew their survival would equal losing himself to Hannibal/the darkness completely) or if Hannibal is forcing him too.

I can see the cliff being a last ditch effort to save himself, but I think that can still hold with my idea of him accepting the outcome of whatever the fall is, and knowing that he's not coming back from it.

I would hate to think Hannibal was forcing him, not because Hannibal wouldn't do something like that, because he totally would, he's Satan, but because that almost seems too easy, lol. Like it looks like Will has finally accepted his darkness, but no, he's swung back the other way again. I just think that each season as been Will getting closer and closer to Hannibal and that this is it, as close as he can get, and it's done. I also believe he's willingly participating. As he said earlier this season, he had to kill Hannibal or he was going to become him, and well, he didn't kill him... I think he went over the cliff accepting whatever the outcome was. Because if he really wanted to die, I mean, he could have tried again. Also, even though the line wasn't Will's I can't help but think it has massive significance: "I'm glad you chose life. Suicide is the enemy."

I'm going to take comfort in your words, anon. I would absolutely loathe to think that Hannibal was forcing Will to travel with him. It wouldn't be the first time Hannibal had made a victim of Will, but we've seen Will be a victim so many times already. I don't think there's much new to see there; it's much more interesting for him to explore that side of himself he's always been attracted to but chose to ignore. And yea, now that he fully understands how good it feels to kill by Hannibal's side, I don't think he can go back to being that person. How could he forget something like that? (Look at Hannibal's face, the guy was practically aroused, and Will was def happier than any person should be after they've just helped murder someone.)

Now that he knows that feeling, I think given his history it wouldn't even be far fetched to assume he could get addicted to it.

it's much more interesting for him to explore that side of himself he's always been attracted to but chose to ignore. And yea, now that he fully understands how good it feels to kill by Hannibal's side, I don't think he can go back to being that person.

And I can even see Will being a 'moral' killer, like only killing people he feels deserve it, other killers, etc. Of course, that still doesn't make it right for him to brutally slay them, but that's why it's dark, lol. Because I do think now that he's killed with Hannibal, now that he knows how good it feels, he can't go back.

I think given his history it wouldn't even be far fetched to assume he could get addicted to it.

In an interview, Fuller even compared Hannibal to a drug for Will. He can't stay away, no matter how hard he tries and once he gets the old taste again, he's back in it (referring to the 3 year separation).

I was actually considering this the other day! That if there's a part of Will that still needs to be good, well, he can convince Hannibal to kill criminals he deems deserving of it. That way Will can still feel like he isn't a TOTAL monster, and Hannibal gets his fix too. It would be a good solution for them, I think. Will would be able to experience that high while still feeling like he's doing a necessary evil.

God,i want this as a fic.

Ooo, I didn't see that particular comparison. It's a potent one, and very true that Will might try to distance himself from Hannibal but once he gets back into his orbit he can barely escape.

I can see Hannibal semi-compromising on who to kill. Though I don't think he'd let Will totally have his own way. I can see Hannibal just going out and coming back with some, er, meat, and giving Will an eyebrow raise as he slaps it down to cook. Like, 'fine if you don't always want to kill with me, but I'm not going to stop'. Then over dinner, Will would eat the meat, but with pointed annoyance, before saying that he read about some interesting murders on Tattle Crime. God, the fucked up everyday arguments these two would have.

But really, if any sort of 'compromise' were reached, I can imagine that Hannibal maybe would choose people to kill that Will wouldn't have a problem with, but that he would like befriend them beforehand and invite them to dinner, and generally fuck with them like he does before he and Will finally kill them. Hannibal is already serial killer royalty, so imagine all the killers who would want to meet him. They'd think they were in the inner circle, never knowing that Hannibal was luring them in for Will, who was biding his time. Hannibal really seems to kill all over the board, it's not like he really has a type (besides anyone who looked at him funny) that he targets. If Will only wanted to kill bad people, I think Hannibal would go with it. At least for a while, as he probably thinks he can work Will up to other things.

But then, I could also be on board with any sort of dark Will. Having Will be a Dexter-like killer might be too easy. There would have to be some other sort of conflict. Like maybe Will makes that compromise with himself, saying he'll only do this to permanently 'catch' people like he was when he was FBI, yet at the same time, it not being enough for him in the end.

You should just give in and write this.

Haha, nah, no pressure.

But it DOES sound incredible! This is exactly the kind of thing I would want from a season 4. (Though, like I said before, a part of me thinks it's almost better if we don't get it so I can't be disappointed. My headcanon of the hypothetical season 4 are perfection, lol.)

I can see Hannibal just going out and coming back with some, er, meat, and giving Will an eyebrow raise as he slaps it down to cook.

Beautiful. Most of my other ships are relatively happy and healthy, so maybe part of what thrills me so much about Hannibal and Will is that they're the exact opposite. 'Normal' people worries wouldn't be such a big thing for them, no, the worries they have would be about "Is this person shitty enough to kill?" and "No Hannibal, we've already killed too many people in this city, the police are going to get suspicious. I know that guy insulted your tie but you've got to let it go."

I can imagine that Hannibal maybe would choose people to kill that Will wouldn't have a problem with, but that he would like befriend them beforehand and invite them to dinner, and generally fuck with them like he does before he and Will finally kill them.

Yes! Hannibal loves to play with his dinner first. Clearly his desire for that isn't just going to evaporate, and I do think Will would enjoy it too.

You're probably right in that Hannibal wouldn't be totally satisfied with such an arrangement (at least not forever), but with spending so much time in Hannibal's presence, I don't think there's any way Will wouldn't eventually lose more and more of his resolve.

My problem is that even though I seem to be having ideas, I have no idea how to capture Hannibal and Will's voices. Everything they say is so poetic and metaphor filled and enigmatic, I'm not sure I can hear it. Other fandoms I've written for, I can almost hear how the characters would say things. Though I haven't even really read any fanfic for Hannibal, besides the odd piece here and there, and I've never written fic for a fandom I hadn't spent at least several months reading fic in. Usually, what happens is that I NEED more of the characters, go start reading fic, and then eventually end up with ideas for my own fic, even though I never intended to start writing in the first place, lol. So obviously the first step here is to go read a ton of fanfic. I've never been driven to read fic for Hannibal, but after the finale, I'm feeling it.

(Though, like I said before, a part of me thinks it's almost better if we don't get it so I can't be disappointed. My headcanon of the hypothetical season 4 are perfection, lol.)

Yeah, I do feel this on a big level. Whether you want dark Will or moral Will, you can have it, and no later season will end up disappointing you. Though perhaps S4 could have a Will who was both dark and moral. I mean, if anyone could do it, Fuller could. I can also see a Will who doesn't enjoy what he does with Hannibal, but needs to do it so badly that he can't help it. That could be another way of having conflict. You can almost see this in the earlier seasons when he empaths stuff. He gets so far into the heads of the killers, and you can tell he's horrified at the same time that he totally occupies their headspace.

But I suppose S4 would be likely to disappoint someone (unless Fuller is some kind of creative genius, which I'm not discounting). It seems pretty clear (to me) given the tease of Argentina which was given earlier in a tweet, and the fact that Fuller mentioned exploring something which hadn't been done in any adaptation, that he was giving Clarice's ending to Will. That's where I see the S3 finale heading. Of course, in the books, that was actually the *ending*, but with a SotL season planned after that here, it wouldn't have been. So even if Will was dark for a season, then what? Kill him? Have him not be able to live like Hannibal after all? Keep him dark? Have him be a 'lawful evil'? IDK. We have no idea what happens to Clarice after she's seen in Argentina with Hannibal. But then, if the show never continues, we have no idea what Will's life is like either. The only difference is that we don't have a definitive 'yes, he left with Hannibal and they're now killing it up.'

Though when I got thinking about how a Clarice could work if the show were to go on, and taking my preference for dark Will into account, I came up with this. What if Hannibal and Will are dark (Will, however dark you want him) and killing people, and Hannibal is captured again, but Will isn't? Maybe Hannibal even made sure Will got away and risked himself. And then Will is just kind of out there, lurking on the sidelines. And then Jack the idiot sends Clarice in to see Hannibal because Jack cannot solve a case on his own (and if they can't use Buffalo Bill, it could even be Will's murders they need Hannibal's input on), and Hannibal and Clarice develop the same weird rapport they do in the movie, but then Hannibal escapes with the ambulance fakeout (as he does) or maybe Will helps him escape, and there's some sort of confrontation between all three of them, but in the end, Hannibal doesn't kill Clarice because it would be rude, and he and Will leave together, and he perhaps calls Clarice later, just to keep things interesting. And Clarice of course is still sort of looking for Hannibal and Will in her spare time because they're the ones that got away. The end. Murder husbands + weird relationship with Clarice. If I ever figure out how to go about writing a Hannibal fic, this would be it.

"No Hannibal, we've already killed too many people in this city, the police are going to get suspicious."

Kind of like this.
http://www.hanniballectermd.com/post/89304741510

I have no idea how to capture Hannibal and Will's voices. Everything they say is so poetic and metaphor filled and enigmatic, I'm not sure I can hear it.

And that's exactly why most Hannibal fic will probably not live up to the show, because the show is so damn unique and superbly written. It would be difficult to recapture the magic of the show with words because so much of what the show focuses on is explained with visual cues. It's a different beast using words than images.

I'm still hoping there's something out there we can enjoy, though!

He gets so far into the heads of the killers, and you can tell he's horrified at the same time that he totally occupies their head-space.

That's true! This makes me think of that line Hannibal had about how Will shouldn't reproduce. That was a nasty little line, but an interesting one. I think he was right, and you're right; Will sometimes sees himself as part monster, and will think so even more now. (Didn't he explain Dolarhyde as a "person with a demon on his back?" or something? He clearly was thinking about Hannibal during that conversation, but maybe he saw some of himself in it too. 'We're beginning to blur' and all that; they're more alike than Will would like to think.)

So even if Will was dark for a season, then what? Kill him?

You know by now how much I want to see Hannibal and Will traveling the world, meeting interesting people and killing them, but this is what I don't want. If it's a choice between what we have now and a season full of that with Will changing his mind, or dying at the end, I think I would rather take the finale as is.

And honestly, if Will DID go on a killing spree with Hannibal for a season then undoubtedly he would deserve a well written death, but the part of me that loves Will is just going, "No, look how awful Hannibal is and he has to live. You can't kill Will, especially now that he and Hannibal have just teamed up."

I also like your idea for Clarice! That's a solid plan you have there, and I think it could work for the show. I would actually really like to see Hannibal risk his freedom for Will, because that's the kind of thing you wouldn't have expected of Hannibal before, you know? But by the finale he's definitely so gone for Will (in whatever way) that him doing so seems possible.

I hope if season 4 happens and Fuller does add Clarice, it's something like this. I wouldn't want Will to be pushed to the side (and I don't think he wants to do that anyway, considering what he's said about s4 so far) to make place for Clarice, I would want them to both share a sense of importance.

Okay, I need to see more of this particular tumblr.

It would be difficult to recapture the magic of the show with words because so much of what the show focuses on is explained with visual cues.

I know. Even if you can get their voices down, the show is such a visual thing. On the one hand, that makes no sense, because all shows are visual things, but this show is even MORE visual than other shows.

But I have started reading all the post-finale fic. I haven't found anything yet that really grabbed me, but I'm enjoying myself. I'm hoping that after the 'immediate coda' period, someone (or a few someones) will start having some more in depth post-finale fic.

If it's a choice between what we have now and a season full of that with Will changing his mind, or dying at the end, I think I would rather take the finale as is.

Yeah, this is me. And I know other people would want Will to come back from darkness. So there would be no pleasing everyone. But I see the finale as Going There, and I wouldn't want to come back from that. But like I said, I don't see Will being exactly like Hannibal, and I do see different ways for him to be dark and still have conflict, to give into these things and not like it, or to enjoy it but hate himself, or to live with Hannibal and like it and hate it at the same time, or to be more particular about who he kills and when.

"No, look how awful Hannibal is and he has to live. You can't kill Will, especially now that he and Hannibal have just teamed up."

If one lives, then the other has to live. That's just how I feel the show has gone.

I would actually really like to see Hannibal risk his freedom for Will, because that's the kind of thing you wouldn't have expected of Hannibal before, you know? But by the finale he's definitely so gone for Will (in whatever way) that him doing so seems possible.

I can just see him figuring that jail is no big deal for him, but it would be for Will (even though Will has also been to jail). Or I can see him just doing it in the moment without thinking, as a reaction to something.

And apparently Fuller said (when addressing whether the cancellation had anything to do with not having the rights to Clarice) that S4 would deal with Will and Hannibal's continuing story, and that SotL wouldn't be until S5 anyway. So he obviously thinks there's a lot more story to do with Hannibal and Will, though since Clarice was mentioned, it seems that Hannibal would get caught again by the end of S4, to set up SotL.

Okay, I need to see more of this particular tumblr.

Man, my favorite posts on Tubmlr have to be the crack ones. I don't go much for crack fic or fluffy fic, but I love me some Hannibal lol posts.

Hannibal is so distinct and unique with visuals though! This show more than almost every other I've seen is heavily visual. I know the show gets called pretentious a lot, lmao, but the fact of the matter is the visuals DO speak very loudly; sometimes they tell a story in ways words can't.

Same. I've found a few fics I've enjoyed, but mostly there's codas. Some stuff is insanely OOC, some is pretty spot on, though not as eloquently written as the show. (Which is no insult to the fanbase, because the show is beautiful and it would be difficult to live up to it.)

I've watched/listened to a few podcasts and reviews since the finale and it seems that most people outside the tumblr fanbase do not want Will to go full dark!side. They all seem to acknowledge and love the finale and even point out how 'romantic' Will and Hannibal's relationship is and how brilliant it is for Will to kill with Hannibal, but Will is so beloved that I think most people have difficulty with the idea of seeing him sullied in that way. Even though he already has been for a long time, seeing it explicitly explored in such a way would be hard for some of the audience. Watching the show again has just reminded me how Will had this in him all along, and Hannibal was a large part of what drew it out of him.

IA! Apparently Fuller does too, so there's that.

Again, it probably says something about me and this particular relationship that I think Hannibal sacrificing his freedom for Will is sweet. For Hannibal it is, anyway.

So we'd get at least one more season of Hannibal on the loose? Though Fuller has been brilliant, I LOVED that we got so much of Hannibal outside jail. Seeing him locked up is interesting in its own way, but I much prefer to see him doing his thing out of jail.

Me too! I can't think of any other fandom that is this dark and yet manages to bring so much humor to it. It's a morbid sense of humor, but it delights me. (The show is the same way though, what with Hannibal and all his 'sly' cannibalism jokes. Mads is such a genius in his portrayal of Hannibal. Even when he isn't making jokes...I'm imagining his face when Will bites Mason's chef, lol. He's smiling and so damn proud. It's hilarious. Oh, and him with poor Chilton's lip in s3, and the comment about him hoping Chilton isn't too ugly. He has such a wicked, rude sense of humor at times, which again...is pretty hilarious considering the whole 'eat the rude' thing.)

Well, today I accidentally wrote post-finale fanfic. Oops.

I've watched/listened to a few podcasts and reviews since the finale and it seems that most people outside the tumblr fanbase do not want Will to go full dark!side.

I can see this. And I had never really thought about the show itself taking Will full darkside before the finale, but in retrospect, it just looks like an obvious ending. Like we said, even early in S3, he was acting waaaaay sketchy.

but Will is so beloved that I think most people have difficulty with the idea of seeing him sullied in that way. Even though he already has been for a long time, seeing it explicitly explored in such a way would be hard for some of the audience.

I was saying to someone else that the show is the most fascinating example of 'love doesn't change the bad guy' that I've ever seen. You know how it is, most media will have an actual villain or just a badboy turn good for the love of a good person. Actually seeing it play out in reverse is incredibly interesting. Will has been sullied for a long time, but I think we're so used to 'right' and 'good' triumphing in the end (even that culminates in murder suicide) that it's hard to consider that going bad might be someone's ending. Especially on a show where going bad never seemed to be the point (unlike say, Breaking Bad, where going bad was the point).

(Though apparently no one has a problem sullying Clarice in that way (Argentina). Then again, that ending for her wasn't in the movie, and the books aren't as widespread.)

Again, it probably says something about me and this particular relationship that I think Hannibal sacrificing his freedom for Will is sweet.

Or maybe murder husbands are continually bickering, and on the night things went wrong, Will pushed Hannibal in front, lol. Hannibal would probably respect him for that, though, especially if Will helped break him out later.

Seeing him locked up is interesting in its own way, but I much prefer to see him doing his thing out of jail.

It's horrible that I actually want him on the loose. But then, it seems that most do in the end, since all the books and movies end that way.

I'm imagining his face when Will bites Mason's chef, lol. He's smiling and so damn proud. It's hilarious.

I saw a hilarious post on Tumblr about this, but I don't seem to have saved it and now I can't find it.

Oh, and him with poor Chilton's lip in s3, and the comment about him hoping Chilton isn't too ugly. He has such a wicked, rude sense of humor at times

Hannibal really gets snarky when he's cornered. You really get a lot of that when he's in jail, but even in S2, he taunts Mason or Mason's men about the man he attacked ("did he soil himself?"). It's like once he has nothing left to pretend about, the civilized gloves come off.

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

elaminator - 2015-09-08 20:05 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

goldenusagi - 2015-09-11 23:22 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

elaminator - 2015-09-14 16:46 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

goldenusagi - 2015-09-20 03:56 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Anyone seen the Hannibal finale? [spoilers obviously]

elaminator - 2015-09-20 13:27 (UTC) - Expand

Anyway, I think Will would actually be a different type of killer than Hannibal would. Hannibal enjoys the long term mind fuck. Even with people he intends to dispose of like Gideon or Bedelia, he wants to play a long game. I'm not sure Will would. I think Will might be in it just for the kill. They're alike as far as darkness, but I'm not sure how alike they'd be as far as methods. I can see Will being the more direct 'hunt, stalk, kill' type.

I could see Will enjoying the whole 'whining and dining' thing on some level (maybe largely because of how much Hannibal enjoys it), but I'm not sure he would relish it as much as Hannibal. Hannibal lives for it, but Will just seems...well, look at how much he enjoyed brutally murdering Dolarhyde, lmao. I don't think he would've loved it anymore if they sat down to dinner first.

Maybe the actual act of killing would be the part that excites him, but he would sit through the other stuff because Hannibal 'needed' it.

Btw, I'm not sure I've ever had a conversation this long on f!s and I'm kind of amused it's about Hannibal and Will's murderous globe trotting.

Okay, I've got to sign in because it's becoming increasingly hard to keep track of our conversation, lol. I usually just go anon because I never really comment.

I can see Will enjoying the wining and dining, but as for the months long mindfuckery that Hannibal seems to enjoy, it doesn't strike me as his thing. Like if Hannibal brought in some brainwashed girl to keep in the basement for two years, Will would be like HELL NO. Or getting more cracky, "if you get to keep her, then I want a dog". Though on a serious note, I kind of doubt Hannibal needs such long term guest/prisoners now, since he has everything he's wanted in Will.

look at how much he enjoyed brutally murdering Dolarhyde, lmao. I don't think he would've loved it anymore if they sat down to dinner first

Yeah. And he's done some other stuff this season that in retrospect makes him look really suspect. I mean, what was with the murder art he made of Chiyoh's prisoner? Who was for? It was something Hannibal would never even see. If he just did that for HIMSELF, um, that definitely says that he feels a need to do these things, and can even enjoy them. Or maybe he doesn't enjoy them, but the need is to great to ignore. The more I look at this season, the more I see Will's darkness being released.

Now I feel bad for making you log in! If you want to stop replying to any point that's fine! I do tend to get carried away sometimes...and I don't think I've ever had an in-depth discussion about Hannibal in f!s before. You caught me at the right/wrong time.

Ooo, yea, even being darker and more open to Hannibal's suggestions I don't think Will would want to keep a long term hostage. I feel like that would be a touch too far. (Maybe Hannibal would tease him about it, lol.) Will should totally try to get Hannibal to okay a dog. (Though Hannibal anywhere hear a sweet, innocent animal kind of freaks me out tbh.)

I kind of doubt Hannibal needs such long term guest/prisoners now, since he has everything he's wanted in Will

That seems accurate. Things would change for Hannibal now that he has Will, but he would also be much...happier. He's always worked alone before, but now he has a partner in crime, and one that he's been longing for quite a while at that. I'd be interested to see how they get along in a day to day relationship.

what was with the murder art he made of Chiyoh's prisoner? Who was for?

You know, I did think he did that for himself but also wondered if it didn't also serve as a weird sort of tribute to Hannibal. (Considering the prisoners connection to him.)

Will was really dark this season. He was manipulating people left and right and making dodgy comments. (A lot of his scenes with Bedelia were so hostile, and then there was that bit with Pazzi where he asked Pazzi how he knew he was on his side. I wasn't even sure he was on Pazzi's side. I do wonder how much he told Dolarhyde, too.)

Oh, it's no big deal. I probably should have logged in a long time ago, just to keep track of things. I've commented signed in on the comm before now, here and there; I just don't actively participate in this comm that much so I usually don't bother. No need to stop, I'm glad to have someone to talk about the finale with, especially regarding dark Will, lol.

even being darker and more open to Hannibal's suggestions I don't think Will would want to keep a long term hostage

Plus, I imagine them either lying really low where no one knows they're alive, or they're known to be alive and so can't stay in one place very long. Not exactly good hostage taking. I mean, you need an established murder basement for that sort of thing. OTOH, Hannibal is obviously filthy rich, so who knows how much real estate he owns?

But speaking on whether they're alive, I imagine eventually it would come out, but the real question is, how long would it take someone to even find where they 'died'? I'm assuming Hannibal's house was not the plan, so how would Jack or anyone know where to find them at all? The house was even pretty isolated, so it would be a while before someone noticed Dolarhyde's body.

(Though Hannibal anywhere hear a sweet, innocent animal kind of freaks me out tbh.)

I feel like he wouldn't have much interest in animals. After all, they can't be rude or really offend him, and cutting them up would probably be boring. He wouldn't want to eat them. But do you remember in S2, when he drugged Mason, and we saw from Mason's POV that Mason was about to stab a pig? Hannibal stops him. I only realized after the fact that those 'pigs' Mason saw were Will's dogs. Even Hannibal knows that Will will accept drugging Mason and getting him to eat his own face, but that Will would not accept Hannibal letting Mason kill his dogs.

You know, I did think he did that for himself but also wondered if it didn't also serve as a weird sort of tribute to Hannibal. (Considering the prisoners connection to him.)

Yeah, but that's still really messed up, lol. Who just cuts up a body and makes murder art as tribute? Whatever Will's reasoning was, HE wanted to do it. He didn't NEED to do it, like he did in S2, when he was trying to prove himself to Hannibal.

He was manipulating people left and right and making dodgy comments. (A lot of his scenes with Bedelia were so hostile

I could NOT figure out why he was so hostile to Bedelia. What did she ever do to him? Like, I get why he's hostile to Freddie, makes perfect sense. But Bedelia? He's barely interacted with her. Now, in retrospect, I can only assume it was some sort of weird displaced jealousy, or his own self-loathing projected onto Bedelia. It would be beyond messed up for him to be jealous, but I'm not sure I'd put anything past the show at this point. Though I do lean toward self-loathing. Will sees Bedelia as someone who went with Hannibal, knowing what he was. And he knows that he wants to and hates himself for it, so takes it out on her.

and then there was that bit with Pazzi where he asked Pazzi how he knew he was on his side.

I thought that was creepy even at the time.

I never thought I'd say it but I adore dark!Will. In season one I was very against the idea of such a thing, and although I definitely enjoyed that he could still have those moments while not fully losing himself to them, I wasn't sure how I felt about him going “completely" dark in season two either. Season three however...worked for me on every level. It was such a natural progression, and frankly a bit of a slippery slope that I had no trouble believing it.

Hmm, I hadn't considered that Hannibal might have other homes, but it's certainly possible! (Probably even likely, given his love of all things fancy. He might have a few houses in beautiful, far off corners of the world.) I had expected that Hannibal and Will would need to go on the run, it would be safer that way, but now you've got me thinking Hannibal could already have a backup plan and a place they can stay.

That crossed my mind as well. I'm sure as soon as the ambush happened Jack had people out looking for them, but with how quickly he agreed to Will's plan... He doesn't expect them to survive. (Fuller said this too, that Jack assumes Will might die with Hannibal and that it's a reasonable sacrifice. Poor Molly... (If she had just asked Will to stay, maybe things would've been different, at least for a while longer.) But yea, eventually they would find Hannibal's house, but it might take a few days? Long enough for Will and Hannibal to escape despite their injuries.

I think you're right in that Hannibal wouldn't be into killing or eating dogs, but something about the imagery of him around them is freaking me out anyway. Maybe the fact that he feed some of Mason's face to Will's dogs. Of course Will put a quick stop to that, and I don't think Hannibal would risk such a thing again now that he has him for good, but... It's just a general feeling of being unsettled, lmao. Maybe he would even grow to like them, though. (Through Will.)

You will get no argument from me about how screwed up Will's murder art was. That this is something he did on his own free will is pretty telling.

In regards to Bedelia, I think it's a bit of both. You know Will wanted to run off with Hannibal but he wouldn't allow himself, and Bedelia did it with full consent and came out of it unscarred. Like Will says, he sure as hell didn't get away from Hannibal unscarred, so maybe there's a part of Will that wonders why Hannibal wouldn't let him get away without harm, but would Bedelia. Jealousy through that, at least partially. (Though of course, Hannibal feels betrayed by Will, and as Bedelia says, “My relationship with Hannibal is not as passionate as yours".)

I think it was supposed to be, since it really doesn't seem obvious at the time. Up to that point Will clearly wants to see Hannibal again, even seems to long for it, and it doesn't even feel vengeful at the time. Sure he might be holding onto some bitterness and anger, but he also seems to miss Hannibal. (The way he talks about him to Abigail.) All Pazzi sees is a man who had a close relationship with Hannibal who Hannibal brutally stabbed, trying to find him. The fact that Hannibal left him a heart and also Will seems to desperately want to see (when he thinks Hannibal is in the catacombs) is frightening. (Will isn't scared to go down there, and for someone who had went through what he went through that's something else.) And lastly, Will also all but tells him that Hannibal is going to kill him but when he goes down anyway doesn't seem all that concerned. Will does not care that much.

Edited 2015-09-02 11:48 (UTC)