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fandomsecrets2008-02-14 04:00 pm
degrees.livejournal.com) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-02-14 04:00 pm
[ SECRET POST #405 ]
⌈ Secret Post #405 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Last day to submit for next week!
Happy Valentines Day to everyone! ♥♥♥
Also, just a note: Dude, bitmaps are HUGE. Please don't submit secrets in bitmap format. I redid one today to a jpeg, because I was feeling nice, but we will make a special section down in the not posted secrets in the future for bitmaps. We're trying to make the page as easy to load for everyone as we can. Thanks!
Secrets Left to Post: 4 pages, 81 secrets from Secret Submission Post #058.
Secrets Not Posted: 0 broken links, [ 1 2 3 4 ] not!secrets, 0 not!fandom, [ 1 2 3 4 5 ] too big, [ 1 ] ...the hell?.
Next Secret Post: Tomorrow, Friday, February 15th, 2008.
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 59
(Anonymous) 2008-02-15 09:33 am (UTC)(link)I understand what you're saying, but I think that if he's going to realize that in Chapter five, he'd first have to think about what happens in Chapter three, or else it doesn't make any sense that he's still so calm about the whole thing. Even if he tends not to notice things, I think what happened was enough to make him realize that what they'd been doing was more than just casual dinners. And seeing the way he freaked out at first, I think his reaction in Chapter four should have been more than just "I should go talk to Edgeworth". But I already covered that in my other post.
It's not that we somehow "forgot" to have a scene where Phoenix does some in depth soul searching, it's that we deliberately shied away from that because we didn't think it suited Phoenix's character.
There didn't need to be any specific scene with "soul searching", just more introspection throughout the whole thing, so we don't have to keep guessing what he's really thinking. And I doubt that "thinking" can be out of character for anyone.
Re: 59
But they've already come to an understanding about what happened in chapter three.
And seeing the way he freaked out at first, I think his reaction in Chapter four should have been more than just "I should go talk to Edgeworth". But I already covered that in my other post.
Can I ask you a question? Why do you think he freaked out over the kiss?
There didn't need to be any specific scene with "soul searching", just more introspection throughout the whole thing, so we don't have to keep guessing what he's really thinking. And I doubt that "thinking" can be out of character for anyone.
And I'm sure the first game would have been more meaningful if Phoenix had thought about how he wanted to save Edgeworth before 1-4. Just as I'm sure a sequence where Phoenix really faced what was making him lash out and have nightmares in the second game would have been interesting as well.
The problem? He doesn't. He doesn't consider these things. In the entire first game we don't learn about his motivations until the fourth case. He never thinks about them--he just reacts. In the second game, when faced with something he desperately doesn't want to think about, he pushes it away and yells at people when they bring it up to him.
This is a fundamental part of Phoenix's character throughout the games. Going about his day to day life while only skimming the surface of how he feels. Pushing emotions down when they're too big for him to face. Doing things that don't always make sense just because they feel right--like defending Iris even though he wasn't sure how he felt about her or who she even was.
Phoenix is not an introspective character. He usually comes to a decision quickly. When he can't because he's too upset, he'll push the emotion down and try to continue as usual until he's forced to confront it. It never takes him long to work through his issues once they've been addressed. That's Phoenix.
Re: 59
(Anonymous) 2008-02-15 10:43 am (UTC)(link)Where?
Can I ask you a question? Why do you think he freaked out over the kiss?
Well let me answer with another question. Why wouldn't he?
And I'm sure the first game would have been more meaningful if Phoenix had thought about how he wanted to save Edgeworth before 1-4. Just as I'm sure a sequence where Phoenix really faced what was making him lash out and have nightmares in the second game would have been interesting as well.
The problem? He doesn't. He doesn't consider these things. In the entire first game we don't learn about his motivations until the fourth case. He never thinks about them--he just reacts. In the second game, when faced with something he desperately doesn't want to think about, he pushes it away and yells at people when they bring it up to him.
This is a fundamental part of Phoenix's character throughout the games. Going about his day to day life while only skimming the surface of how he feels. Pushing emotions down when they're too big for him to face.
I'm sorry but your comparisons don't make sense. First of all, why would Phoenix constantly be thinking about saving Edgeworth? He's known that for a while, he doesn't need to think about it anymore. He's already made up his mind.
But this is different. It's something that JUST happened, and he's confused. Why wouldn't he think about it? I agree he seems to push his emotions aside when he thinks it's too hard to handle, but I think even him wouldn't be able to do that in that situation. Not until he ponders a little and makes a decision on how he feels about it, at least.
That said, the same thing applies to his reaction in GS2 when people talk about Edgeworth. The game takes place months after Edgeworth left. He's had more than enough time to think about it and make up his mind. If the game took place right after Edgeworth left, I'm sure Phoenix would have thought about it a lot more.
It never takes him long to work through his issues once they've been addressed. That's Phoenix.
Well, there. You said it yourself. How can he address his issues if he doesn't think about them?
Re: 59
Chapter Four?
I'm sorry but your comparisons don't make sense. First of all, why would Phoenix constantly be thinking about saving Edgeworth? He's known that for a while, he doesn't need to think about it anymore. He's already made up his mind.
Even when he first confronts Edgeworth in court? Even after Mia and Maya explicitly ask him about it? Even after defeating him for the first time, even when Edgeworth approaches him and tells him to GTFO from his life? All of that, and absolutely nothing from Phoenix in the game.
But this is different. It's something that JUST happened, and he's confused. Why wouldn't he think about it? I agree he seems to push his emotions aside when he thinks it's too hard to handle, but I think even him wouldn't be able to do that in that situation. Not until he ponders a little and makes a decision on how he feels about it, at least.
And again, it's back to that fundamental disagreement. I think it's completely possible and natural for some people to respond to difficult things by shoving them away and refusing to deal with them. It seems strange to me that this idea is so alien.
That said, the same thing applies to his reaction in GS2 when people talk about Edgeworth. The game takes place months after Edgeworth left. He's had more than enough time to think about it and make up his mind. If the game took place right after Edgeworth left, I'm sure Phoenix would have thought about it a lot more.
I think it's kind of hard to discuss something that's never actually illustrated in the game. What we have to go on is that he blocks it out whenever it comes up--from someone else or from himself--when he doesn't want to deal with it. When "Dollie" suddenly pops back up into his life, Phoenix didn't go into a long string of introspection about it, even when actually faced with Iris. He acted, and we had to rely on physical cues to get an idea of what his response was--not his internal thought or introspection.
Well, there. You said it yourself. How can he address his issues if he doesn't think about them?
By taking action?
Re: 59
(Anonymous) 2008-02-15 11:45 am (UTC)(link)Yes, but I already told you it was really confusing.
Even when he first confronts Edgeworth in court? Even after Mia and Maya explicitly ask him about it? Even after defeating him for the first time, even when Edgeworth approaches him and tells him to GTFO from his life? All of that, and absolutely nothing from Phoenix in the game.
That's exactly my point. He's already made up his mind, he doesn't need to think about it anymore, no matter how much he's reminded of it.
And again, it's back to that fundamental disagreement. I think it's completely possible and natural for some people to respond to difficult things by shoving them away and refusing to deal with them. It seems strange to me that this idea is so alien.
Yes, but the way you portray it, he's not refusing to deal with them, he's just thinking about them, but not very clearly. Obviously he doesn't shove them away completely if he decides to go and talk to Edgeworth. And even though he might have decided not to think about it before getting there, while he's talking to him in the office, it makes no sense that he wouldn't have to think about what to say. And no, what he says in that scene really doesn't convey what he's thinking, and it's unfortunate, cause it could have been an interesting conversation if we knew what he was trying to say, no matter how confused he is about it himself.
When "Dollie" suddenly pops back up into his life, Phoenix didn't go into a long string of introspection about it, even when actually faced with Iris.
That's true, he doesn't, but he doesn't need to. I never said anything about doing huge strings of introspection either, just to make it CLEAR what he's thinking. In the game, it was pretty easy to figure out what he was thinking, without having to go into details. Basically, I'm not saying you need MORE introspection from Phoenix, but that what there is has to be CLEAR. Cause it's useless if you write something and we don't know what you're trying to say.
Re: 59
No, I'm asking why you think he freaked out about it. What prompted the freak out, in your opinion?
I'm sorry but your comparisons don't make sense. First of all, why would Phoenix constantly be thinking about saving Edgeworth? He's known that for a while, he doesn't need to think about it anymore. He's already made up his mind.
And, after chapter four, why would Phoenix be thinking about the kiss? He wanted to know why it happened. Edgeworth couldn't bring himself to tell him outright, but Phoenix comes to understand as he watched Edgeworth in the office. Then he extends the invitation to go out to dinner with him again--everything makes sense now, he's gotten his answer as to how Edgeworth feels. Phoenix isn't going to reject him--not at this point. (Again, the pulling him back when it looks like Edgeworth is moving away, speaking of their dinners in "past tense") Now he can begin to process things on his own end.
In short, the kiss has been resolved.
The kiss isn't a catalyst. It's a symptom of what's going on between them, not the source.
Re: 59
(Anonymous) 2008-02-15 12:11 pm (UTC)(link)Well, first of all, cause he was oblivious to what was really going on between them until then.
Secondly, Edgeworth is a man.
Edgeworth couldn't bring himself to tell him outright, but Phoenix comes to understand as he watched Edgeworth in the office.
I think you don't understand what I'm saying. I KNOW that Phoenix gets his answer as to how Edgeworth feels, but what does he think about Edgeworth's feelings? It's not clear at all in the text. Even after reading the scene several times, I still didn't understand what he was thinking, or what he was trying to say. And it's your job as a writer to make it clear for the reader.
Phoenix isn't going to reject him--not at this point. (Again, the pulling him back when it looks like Edgeworth is moving away, speaking of their dinners in "past tense") Now he can begin to process things on his own end.
Well, see, that might be obvious to you, but it's not to the reader. It really wasn't clear from the way it was written if he was rejecting him or not. To me it sounded like he was telling him he just wanted to stay friends, but he was trying not to be an ass about it.
The kiss isn't a catalyst. It's a symptom of what's going on between them, not the source.
When did I say it was the source?
Re: 59
Secondly, Edgeworth is a man.
Just going to quickly respond to this, since I'm not Musouka/Raelle and I don't think I can answer the other questions (though I honestly felt it was clear personally).
Having seen the very long, intricate planning stages for this fic, as far as SAG is concerned (AFAIK), gender is completely and utterly irrelevant. So what if it's a man? Phoenix, if he freaks out, isn't freaking out over "Oh god I kissed a guy," it's "oh god I kissed Edgeworth."
It's not a story about a romance between two men, it's a story about a romance between two people who incidentally happen to be male.
Re: 59
(Anonymous) 2008-02-15 10:04 pm (UTC)(link)And of course, Phoenix, who at one point drastically changed his life in order to save Edgeworth and rekindle a friendship with him, would worry a great deal about the possibility of messing the whole thing up.
That said, I get the feeling from this fic and some of the discussions I've seen around CR and whatnot that the authors see Phoenix as being essentially straight. While I understand that it's nice to think that love has no gender boundaries, it's unrealistic to propose that it doesn't matter at all. And I don't believe that it's unreasonable to say that Phoenix would freak out about being kissed by a man, Edgeworth or no. It's definitely something that should be considered a part of his reaction.
And I think we're about done here. I have other things to do and don't really have the time to argue with three different people at the same time. I hope that, once you all can look at the criticism I've offered a little more objectively, that you might take some of it into consideration when writing further chapters.
Re: 59
That's been our intention from the beginning, as we've all said numerous times. As an author, the last thing I want to do is confuse my readers, therefore it's definitely something we'll all try to keep in mind as we're writing/going over future chapters.
And, again, as I said before, thank you for telling us how you felt about this. I might not agree with all of your views on the matter, but I appreciate the time you've taken to discuss it with us.