fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3236 ]

[ SECRET POST #3236 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3236 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[Video Games, The Last Of Us]

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03.

[Akagami no Shirayukihime]

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04.

[Nameless ~The one thing you must recall~]

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07.

(The Librarians, Cassandra Cillian)

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08. [SPOILERS for Room (2015)]

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09. [SPOILERS for Hemlock Grove seasons 2 & 3]

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10. [WARNING for incest]

[Game of Thrones]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #462.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So I was reading this article someone linked to.

http://www.xojane.com/issues/feminism-men-practical-steps

And the whole time I was reading it, I was thinking, "This is what people mean when they say feminism fails at intersectionality."

It struck me as a one-size-fits-all brownie points checklist that frames "men" as a monolith of white, heterosexual, able-bodied, etc., basically privileged in every way that it's possible to be privileged, ignoring all the complexities of how different identities/privileges interact and overlap.

But to be fair to the article and its writer, my opinion of the thing as a whole was coloured by my reaction to the very first point on the list, saying that men who live with women should be doing 50% of the housework. That one made me raise an eyebrow. When I was growing up my mother always did way more housework than my father, not because my parents thought men shouldn't have to do housework, but because my father was disabled and physically couldn't do all the things my mother could do.

Is it really fair to expect a man to do work that would have a serious negative impact on his health, solely for the sake of upholding a "feminist" principle? And yes, I get that this is probably not an issue for most heterosexual married couples, ignoring this dimension of it seems wrong to me.

Then again, the only reason that particular scenario immediately comes to my mind is because it's a situation my family lived with and still lives with. So it could be that my reaction to that first point, a reaction based on my own personal experiences, is preventing me from approaching the rest of the article from an unbiased perspective.

What do you guys think?

To be honest, my approach to things like this is to try not to get bogged down in the literal correctness of every statement but to try to appreciate any statement for what it is trying to say & for the good message it is trying to get across. Obviously that isn't always possible. But I think this is a case where it is. I mean, I think most of the suggestions are coming from a good place. And frankly no approach to any question like this will ever be able to completely take account of all particular circumstances. So I think the most you can ask is that they're aware of this - which they are, they go out of their way to frame it as "a way to think about socialization" and point out that not all of these can apply to every man.

I don't think it's a "full-out SJW" thing. It's a completely applicable reaction & figuring out how to live is hard.

yeah, this.

If someone makes a point like that I'm going to assume they're referring to a situation where both partners are able-bodied or at least not significantly disabled and work roughly the same amount.

Giving a flat number like 50% is stupid no matter what. If the woman works and the man is a stay at home dad, expecting the woman to do 50% of the housework on top of her 9-6 job being the sole breadwinner is ridiculous. Same if the genders are switched. No one should do 0%, but "fair" is something that's agreed upon between the parties concerned, and random strangers trying to correct them is dumb.

I think the author could have helped this a lot of they had put in just a couple lines mentioning that "now of course, this wouldn't fit every single household, due to disability and other issues." It's a good thing to acknowledge and wouldn't take up much room.

But I don't think it needs a full-blown analysis of how it would be different for other types of households, because the article's obviously aimed at the "typical" heterosexual household and honestly, articles like this NEED to be short and focused enough to be actually readable in a reasonable length of time, instead of being a long multi-part analytical essay.

They did say that not all of these can apply to every situation, although they didn't mention disability as a specific reason it might not.

DA. Yeah, this. It was totally mentioned that not all things would be applied to everyone. Like, that was said before the list even got started.

"This list entails suggestions for some practical tools all men can apply in their day-to-day lives to foster equality in their relationships with women"

Actual quote, directly copypasted.

Sounds like the author's talking out of both sides of their mouth.

DA.

Another direct quote:

"The list is not intended to be exhaustive or exclusive. Certain items on the list will apply to some men more than others, but if you are a man and a human I guarantee there is at least one area on the list where you could make an improvement."

I don't think the author is wrong to say ONE THING is likely going to apply to any man who is going to read it.

I don't know why the author would need to mention that at all. Surely anyone with any level of reading comprehension should be able to come to that conclusion on their own. I mean, come on.

er, I mean, I am assuming the article referred to couples where one was not significantly more disabled than the other.

you could argue that there's an intersectionality fail in not clarifying that in that point, I guess.

Nah, you have a point. I have usually done the majority of the housework in my home (and always have) because my partner worked from home and I couldn't really expect her to cut into her earning time to do an equal share of the chores.

Now, if the situations were to change and I was suddenly the one having to spend more time at work, then I would expect her to pick up the slack.

I see that as more of an equal division than simply drawing a line down the center of a list and saying NOW THIS IS FAIR.

Yeah, I think the article assumes people are going to be smart enough to figure out that the 50/50 percentage applies to equally-abled couples, and that putting in a disclaimer about disabilities might seem like too much of a "well, obviously; why are you spelling it out like we're idiots?" for most people.

It probably makes sense to look at this as a list of 35 ways to follow, and more as a list of 35 things about the patriarchy that men are socialized to ignore.

Take the chores example. It doesn't make sense to expect a perfectly down-the-line division of chores in all circumstances. But it's absolutely true that men are socialized to assume an uneven division of chores, and frankly not even to notice that it exists. It's just something that men don't even think about. So whatever the equitable division of chores is - the point is that, if you are a man, this is something that you have to be consciously aware of and think about. And that's extremely far from being the case with men in general.

And I think you could say the same running down the list - these are things that men often do not even think about, so getting them to think about it is worthwhile even if in practice doing a lot of these things is more complicated than just "a 50/50 split". I mean, heck, when you get down to it praxis is ALWAYS complicated.

Honestly, I expect the only reason they formatted it like that is because a lot more people are liable to read it if it's formatted that way.

No, you're right, it is simplistic, and it does fail at intersectionality by not acknowledging ableism. That's what you get from listicles, I'm afraid. I don't think it's "full on SJW" to think that list is simplistic - it's basic "social justice", to be honest.

On the other hand, I do agree that men (generally speaking) should take a bit more responsibility over household duties. I grew up with a father who did the cleaning, and a mother who did the cooking. Both worked hard, and they were a team.

Whenever I see one of these dudes whose idea of fathering is to sit on the couch while the mother does the housework, and occasionally pet the kids when they're being cute, it infuriates me. Those kids will miss having a bond with their dad.

Yes, you have. Die now, please.

Do you enjoy being an asshole?

I think you are the anti-sjw. the most dangerous thing about sjws is the belief that forgiveness is evil, and the refusal to listen to what the people they are defending want.

It doesn't sound "SJW" to me. It sounds like you have a distinct personal perspective on relationships--one that is legitimate, and one that the article's writer was not considering.

I think you're coming from the MRM fostered perspective of "Protect the Men,Shit on Feminis". That is not to say you are an MRA, just that MRM ideas have permeated our society to an uncomfortable degree and just like internalized misogyny, it is difficult to identify these ideas, and very difficult to not absorb them.

No, you're not full on SJW. xojane is just sloppy and awful. Have you seen some of the ridiculous shit. Some of their greatest hits include "White woman angsting about a woman of color doing Yoga" and all of s.e. smith's weird misogynistic shit. (Books are not a thing women like is one memorable one, ou also listed owning books as classist)

http://failfandomanonwiki.pbworks.com/w/page/59327168/s%20e%20smith for more xojane wanks.

Yeah, I read xoJane in large part because of the trainwreck and the comments. It's one of the few places I read the entire comment section because, wow. They do have some good stuff, but they also publish some very out there stuff. Clickbait, probably, but my trainwreck syndrome doesn't care. :P

I feel it is pretty SJW, yeah. Most of the points listed in the article are going to be at least a bit relevant (and some of them a lot relevant) to almost any given household that involves a man and a woman living together in a domestic situation.

They're all very practical and valid points. Does every point fit every individual situation? Of course not! But that would be true no matter what points were made. Not to mention the person who wrote the article actually says:

The list is not intended to be exhaustive or exclusive. Certain items on the list will apply to some men more than others, but if you are a man and a human I guarantee there is at least one area on the list where you could make an improvement. If you think there’s something we’ve missed, tell me! If you think something on the list is problematic, let’s have a conversation about it!

That's about the most open minded and all inclusive statement she could have made.

(I say this as a mentally ill, asexual person who was raised in poverty and still lives well below the poverty line. Since a lot of SJWs seem to think my axes of disempowerment are necessary in order for my opinion to even matter. Ugh.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3236 ]

Is this reasonable, or have I gone full-out SJW?

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Another Perspective

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Re: Is this reasonable, or have I gone full-out SJW?