fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3238 ]

[ SECRET POST #3238 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3238 ⌋

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That's, in a lot of ways, besides the point. I don't think that Islam, on its own and correctly understood, is the source or the origin or the operating principle or the font of Daesh as an organization, or its aims, or its intent.

I mean, with religion in general, I think you almost always have a wide variety of practices in any religion, and it's generally quite hard to 100% prove or disprove any particular practice or interpretation based on the holy book or the core tenets of the faith. Because people are smart and they put a lot of time and thought into thinking through these kinds of questions. You can rationalize almost anything. Look at the wide variety of practices in Christianity - and almost every one of them would justify their practices by reference to the Bible, even though their practices contradict each other. So I think this is something basic about the way that people approach religion as a human phenomenon, that is true of all religions. I do not think that it is unique to Islam.

What I would say is that - while Daesh is of course distinctly & unmistakably an Islamist organization - I don't think that's a useful approach to the problem they present, and I don't think looking at them as a purely religious phenomenon is useful in terms of telling us how to approach them. I certainly don't think you can use that as a criticism of Islam generally. Islam is an element of the organization but if you stop there in your attempts to understand it you will be dramatically misinformed.

Yes, all of this. This is a very reasonable comment and you should feel good about it :)

This is so true.

The Koran, like the Bible, honestly has loads of really violent passages which do plenty to encourage oppressing and brutally murdering people. it's there, that's true. They also both have peaceful, loving passages. That's true, too.

This leads to a huge variety in possible interpretation. I don't think it's possible to follow everything in the Abrahamic holy books in fact, because the text contradicts itself. Nonetheless, you can be a violent asshole or a peace-loving hippie and find support from either. Anyway, there's no point in singling out Islam because the Jews and Christians have very similar books that at times encourage violence, among other atrocities.

Not to mention that the Bible once played a similar role as the Koran plays now in influencing violent behavior on a large scale. Not that I think it's justified either way, but...well, like you said, the passages are there. Power-hungry people will draw on a variety of things to justify their behavior.

Here's what you fail to understand though. It's not 'power hungry people', it's that ISIS brings in the true believers. It informs everything they do, and exactly why they succeed so well at getting foreign zealot fighters crossing the world to join their cause.

That's a critique more fitting of Al-Queda, not ISIS.

*tips fedora*

Okay.

Stop excusing terrorism.

God dammit stop making me feel like an asshole for agreeing with you.

er...what now?

But that particular model is neither unique to Islam nor a necessary component of Islam.

I agree that they are a distinctively Islamist organization and that their ideology is fundamentally Islamic. But I also genuinely worry about people translating those facts into a broader theory about Islam as a whole, which I do not think is justified.

"it's that ISIS brings in the true believers."

well, bear in mind that you see yourself most 'grayish' way of future. "true believer" only stretch on violence.... well, keep your impression on islam that way to yourself then. this is all i got to said.

if arab never been this mess and weak,.....

really, you just insult muslims all together.

The Quaran is significantly better at being a guide on how to run a society and live your life, insofar as it was written/directed by an actual warlord where there was real practical concerns, whereas the old/new testament were written by a host of different writers over different time periods most of who didn't have any actual power.

Which means the bible instantly has to be read as 'metaphorical', and often contradicts itself, or whatever other excuse you want to not follow the properly crazy shit. The Quaran doesn't have that so much, which means you can read it as the valid world of god and run a society by it - it's just one that belongs in the world of a millenia ago.

And to understand ISIS you need to understand that they are closer than anyone else following the word of their god.

What? No, they are not. The Quran contradicts itself enormously, too. But it flat out says that conversion can not be done at the sword. It flat out condemns murder, especially of the elderly, children, and women. These people have ONLY chosen to follow the most violent passages, and are ignoring the passages that condemn everything they do. They pick and choose as much as anyone.

ISIS is a terror cult more than it is conservative religion. Their motives are not exclusively religion, but also resistance against the movements of the West - they often claim that their strikes are revenge for certain attacks that Western forces have committed on their territories. Not that religion isn't a great cult tool for firing people up and getting them to risk or sacrifice their lives. But even the most conservative Muslim is not going to suicide bomb people. These are classic cult tactics.

I'm not an expert on Islam, but I do know that the Koran calls for freeing slaves, and that ISIS keeps slaves. I'm a bit skeptical that they're following the Koran closely.

Oh so the following verses are taken out of context?

Qur'an (33:50)

Qur'an (23:5-6)

Qur'an (4:24)

Qur'an (8:69)

Qur'an (24:32)

Qur'an (2:178)

Qur'an (16:75)

do you take the content of sentence as a whole or do you even understand the contents of quaran at all?

Yes, it's almost like, the Koran contradicts itself! Which is, shockingly enough, the topic at hand.

The Bible is also pro-slavery, btw.

Not even slightly to the extent that the Bible does, but I'm not particularly interested into getting into a game of 'but this tiny verse I've wildly taken out of context if you side eye it looks like it supports gome stuff and is against bad stuff tm'.

And talking about ISIS as a cult doesn't quite fit. Which model are you using to make that judgement? It doesn't operate in a way even the largest cults like Jonestown did. It's too decentralised and lacking in central figures. And that there are other motivators doesn't mean that religious belief isn't a huge motivating factor.

You're not interested in getting into a game of "this verse supports good stuff and not bad stuff," but you just played "this verse supports bad stuff and not good stuff"? Interpreting verses either matters or doesn't. (Honestly, I lean towards "it doesn't matter what a holy text actually says," but I was going with "it does matter" since I thought that's what you were going with.)

Edited 2015-11-16 07:55 (UTC)

+10000

Thank you. I honestly don't have the energy to talk any more about this whole mess of issues for a while, but I think you made some really good points here.

"And talking about ISIS as a cult doesn't quite fit."

lets just say they make these a quite revelation. on different side.

and the eye of madness....

*tips fedora*

i just telling you this.

you just troll your own prophet for shit.... and you need to read more...

and yes, my tone has becoming sarcastically assholed...

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