fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3307 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3307 ⌋

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Better hope they all wound up in Cologne together then as the crowd of offenders was estimated to be that size.

This is factually wrong, and using incorrect statistics makes it hard to take the rest of your argument seriously.

Initial and following news reports stated this figure. Last thing I heard they had no official estimate as it was impossible to calculate one due to the nature of the situation.

But sure, keep waving that flag there, skippy.

The number you're quoting refers to estimates of people in the area, not people actually perpetrating the violence.

Whether the specific number of people in Cologne is exact or not, my argument still stands. This is not one or two deranged people, this is a clash of cultures.

Well, it's not a question of one or two people, it's a question of a couple of orders of magnitude. And I think it does call into question the whole analogy - especially since it only had one anecdotal example to begin with.

I mean, you know, I think it's worth talking seriously about assimilation and culture in Europe. But I think that requires a commitment to serious, honest inquiry. And lazily shortcutting to "Muslims hate women, love rape" is not a productive thing.

"Muslims hate women, love rape"

Is missing the point entirely. 'Islam' is not a culture. While most migrants come from Islamic countries and are Muslim, it does not logically follow that Islam is the source of the problems we are discussing. There are plenty of European people who are Muslim who understand the culture they are living in - because it is the culture they grew up in.

As for it being 'anecdotal' - you can't create statistics around a single event, but you can look at what happened there, what the witnesses said and draw a picture. Plus, Cologne is not an isolated event. There is emerging evidence in many other European countries of a huge increase in sex attacks specifically related to an influx of migrants.

Talking about assimilation is all well and good, but it's not happening and Europe only has limited resources. The size of the problem is rapidly outpacing our ability to deal with it.

Then make a statistical case using unbiased, reliable statistics.

I think it is pretty hard to make that case, but I'm open to hearing your argument.

Statistic based on what, precisely? Surely you're already aware that social issues are notoriously difficult to represent statistically. Let alone that an issue like this would require extensive documentation to even produce a pattern.

As for the issue of street and sexual harrassment in other cultures, well if hundreds of women talking about it and trying to raise awareness - especially in Egypt - is not enough for you then you're a lost cause.

People en masse do not follow the rules of logic. The time for analysis will come. That time is not now. Quick, clear action is needed to stop this becoming a social nightmare for all involved.

Unfortunately for people like you who have no way of understanding humanity without a large dataset and an R analysis in front of them, that will not involve a clearly stated logical dataset. It will involve a push to integrate people.

The problem is that, when the only tool you have for thinking through a phenomenon is instinct, there's a huge danger of one's biases and prejudices shining through. That's why statistics are valuable - they provide an external guy-line to hold ourselves by to avoid getting carried away. If there isn't any evidence then we have to be careful and take note of our uncertainties and of the ambiguities and lack of clarity that beset us.

I agree that quick, clear action is needed in these situations. I think that the bases of action that you're encouraging will lead to that action being done in ways that's harmful and racist. Of course there should be a push for integration and acclimation. But how that's carried out is very different depending on how you frame the problem. In other words - I agree that quick action is needed, but I'm not sure it should be carried out under the assumption that immigrant men are slavering rapists just waiting to attack women.

C'est la vie. In these situations, historical example and an understanding of humanity is the only sensible basis for decision making, not instinct - which you seem to think is the only alternative to statistics-based decision making.

In these situations, solid evidence in the way you mean it isn't avaialble for a long, long time, long after all is said and done. Partial evidence maybe. But that still has to be patched together by somebody who understands humanity.

"I'm not sure it should be carried out under the assumption that immigrant men are slavering rapists just waiting to attack women. "

Not once have I said that they are. What I have said is that there is a cultural clash here, and that there is extensive documentation online that sexual harrassment and street harrassment are extensive problems in many of the countries of migrants origins.

This has now extended to Europe - correlated to migrants and evidenced in emerging sexual harrassment crime statistics. Clearly there is a problem here and it needs dealing with. Quickly.

+10000 to everything you're saying in this thread. So much of the problem here seems to be that instead of paying attention to what you're actually saying, the person/people you're arguing with are only hearing their own presumption of what you really mean. And there's a kind of paranoia at work that causes people to presume that what you really mean is the worst possible thing they've heard anyone say that sounds remotely similar to what you're actually saying.

So "there is a cultural clash here, and that there is extensive documentation online that sexual harrassment and street harrassment are extensive problems in many of the countries of migrants origins" becomes "immigrant men are slavering rapists just waiting to attack women."

You're seeing the shades of grey, and attempting to navigate them, while others are defaulting almost instantaneously to a need for black and white. The thing I've been struggling to understand is why this is happening. Is everyone so terrified of being thought racist that they won't even look directly at the issue?

"Is everyone so terrified of being thought racist that they won't even look directly at the issue? "

Yes.

Is everyone so terrified of being thought racist that they won't even look directly at the issue?

I think yes. Weren't there news reports that the police initially suppressed the reports because they didn't want to fan anti-immigrant sentiment?

more like the only people who ever bring up this argument are looking for thinly-veiled excuses for their already racist beliefs

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