fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3319 ]

[ SECRET POST #3319 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3319 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Homestuck]

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[Manhunter, Criminal Minds, CSI and X-Files]

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04.

[Heroes Reborn]

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[Story of Seasons]

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[Keanu Reeves]

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[One Punch Man]

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11. http://i.imgur.com/Pc6ksVv.png
[photo of naked dude in a suggestive(?) position]

Notes:

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

After following a conversation on a different form, thought I'd ask for opinions here. Should universities have to allow students to bring "ESA" (Emotional Support Animals) into their dorms if they claim they need the animal to help calm their anxiety or whatever? Do you think this issue is the same as service animals, like guide dogs for the blind? Do you think there's an easy way to separate students who just want to bring their pets, and students who really require the animal to feel calm?

Yes, if they have been given the animal in the same way a guide dog is given then I'd say it should be allowed just as much. By some official means, I mean, where their mental health problems are diagnosed and they are given the animal by whatever the official process is.

Most do, I knew someone who had one. You have to be diagnosed and have your therapist recommend it to the school, but between them and the Office of Disabilities, getting waivers for ESAs is totally possible.

I'm on the fence about this, because I'm on the fence about emotional support animals.

I think animals can be AMAZING emotional support, don't get me wrong. however, I think an animal's right to a safe and healthy quality of life is more important than its work. I've seen a "support" cat taken away because the individual was so depressed, they stopped taking care of themselves - didn't clean, didn't shower. there was garbage and old food everywhere in the apartment, and they did not clean the litter box or care for the cat. The cat had actually had kittens at one point (had apparently been neutered and allowed out) and they found the dead kittens in the litter box. It was that bad. If someone can't take care of themselves, they cannot take care of an animal, period. These animals are still pets, and if you can't commit to one - financially, as well - then you should not be allowed to have one.

That's an extreme scenario, but I'm skeptical of a cat or dog being cooped up in a tiny dorm and cared for by a busy college student. If they have the space, time and money to give the animal a good quality of life, sure.

Anyway, on the immediate issue, ideally it'd be great if emotional support animals were as accepted as service dogs. But I do think there needs to be a strict standard set so people aren't simply bringing their beloved pets to college. I think there needs to be evidence that a psychologist recommended this, and the psychologist should be someone who is regularly involved with this person's mental health, and who has decided that, in their professional opinion, this person has severe issues and will be unable to be successful at college unless they have this animal to help mitigate the illness. And if there is evidence that the student isn't taking care of the pet, some kind of action needs to be taken.

Re: your last paragraph: that is how it works, like all disability accommodation. You provide evidence you have a diagnosed disability, that this is the accommodation you need as recommended, etc. I don't know if animals are checked on in dorms, but since I imagine since when I lived in the dorms they checked on just us people regularly, they would extend that to an animal (though idk as much about that part, but I do agree that there should be an enforced standard of care on service animals)

There's not always a standard enforced on who "gets the doctor's note", as it were, for ESAs. Depending on what therapist you go to, you can fairly easily score an "official note" after even a single session, because some therapists recommend ESAs like it's going out of style. Shitty therapists are all over the place. While this isn't commentary on the necessity of ESAs in general, it's true that it would be pretty easy to find someone who will agree that your pet ferret is now officially a support ferret and you must be able to bring it with you anywhere.

Shitty therapists are all over the place - but so are shitty doctors. Lots of disabilities COULD be faked to get any random accommodation/medication/whatever. Frankly, I know more people with real disabilities who aren't given the accommodations they require - ESPECIALLY by colleges. Colleges are often very strict about accommodation. So, there isn't really a hoard of students bringing fake emotional support animals into dorms - I have known two people who got theirs approved and they went to two totally different schools. And both of them had a real, demonstrable need for them and greatly benefitted.

I definitely agree that there should be an enforced standard of care for ESAs just like any other animal, but I do think you're overstating the issue of college students faking it.

Do you feel the same way about guide dogs for the blind? What if a blind person had difficulty caring for their dog? And if you don't feel the same day, why do you think there is a difference?

Yes, I absolutely do feel the same. If a blind individual is unable to care for a dog, how in the world would that guide dog be able to be successful at its job, for one thing? Some kind of alternative would be necessary, like human help, depending on the reason why an individual isn't able to care for the dog. Keeping animals with owners where they are abused, neglected or don't have their needs met is animal abuse, plain and simple.

Okay, fine, I agree with you there. But you are talking as if that one emotional support animal being abused means that that sort of animal shouldn't be allowed at all. There is no reason to think most of them are being abused, and I don't think policy should be based on that one any more than one guide dog not being cared for means no blind people should be allowed to have guide dogs. The abused animals should be taken away, but those who can care for the animals should be allowed to keep them if they've gone through the proper procedure regardless of whether they are guide dogs or emotional support dogs.

I never said that, and I did say animals can provide really amazing support. Everyone's situation is different, and that call is up for a licensed healthcare provider to make. But I maintain that if a person is ill enough where they can't care for themselves, then they cannot be the primary caregiver for support animals. Or if their illness in any way jeopardizes the care they are able to give that animal. That's why someone certified and professional who is regularly involved in the individual's mental health care should be the one to say both that the individual needs the ESA to be successful in school and they are fit to be able to care for the animal. My point is that universities should have strict standards for what kinds of service or support animals the allow and when, not that they shouldn't be allowed at all.

I don't think the universities should be the ones to decide that, though. A doctor is the only one who can assess whether a person needs the animal or not, and the doctor and whatever the place is that is giving the animals should be the ones deciding whether the person needs an animal and whether they can care for the animal. It shouldn't be based on kinds of service or support animals at all. It should be a case by case basis based on the individual person. And universities aren't qualified to make that decision.

I think we're missing something big here. There's a huge difference between an emotional support animal being allowed on campus and being allowed in dorms.

Can an emotional support animal be perfectly well taken care of by a college student? Of course. In a dorm? Dorm rooms are tiny. It's a horible idea.

In the case of seeing eye dogs: they're very well trained to deal with stress, and students with them tend to be in single rooms. An emotional support animal is generally untrained--it's just a normal pet. A normal dorm is a horrible place for them.

An apartment would be different--but does a residence life office want dogs and cats potentially peeing all over the place or destroying furniture? There's a reason a lot of apartment buildings don't allow pets.

Edited 2016-02-05 05:18 (UTC)

If they need the animal, though. Like, say, if they have panic attacks and/or flashbacks and the animal is the one thing that can calm them. It would seem to me to be the same as a blind person with a guide dog living in the dorm. Not a great idea, but if there is nowhere else they can live and that's where they need to be to go to school then I think it should be allowed. Of course they'd have to make sure the animal could handle it. But that would be an individual decision, not something that should be outright banned.

Being blind isn't a psychological issue--if something happens to the dog, the blind person is inconvenienced but not put in a dangerous situation if that makes sense; they'd just need a different way to get around. I hate to say it but if you're in such a state that you have panic attacks or flashbacks without an animal, living in a dorm away from your support network might be a really bad idea.

Cases where there are no other places where a college student can live are rare--in the US at least you're allowed to use your loans to live off campus. Outside major cities that tends to be a better deal anyway.

And what about other students? My mom and brother have really horrible dog and cat allergies--if they had to live in close proximity with a dog or cat they'd be in serious discomfort.

Edited 2016-02-05 05:48 (UTC)

The training thing is why I would say hell no to allowing ESAs in dorms. Guide dogs go through really rigorous training. One of my family members volunteers with them and it's months and months of training and even then many dogs aren't suitable and don't pass the program. The same is true for many other types of service dogs.

But an ESA is literally just a pet. You aren't assigned an ESA by an agency that's screening the animals for behavioral issues and trying to place them with an appropriate master, and there's no training required at all. Which means someone's ESA might be totally unsuited for life in a dorm, let alone life around other strange people.

Service dogs are required legally to be trained to certain standards, so that they can be allowed in public spaces without being a danger to other people. ESAs aren't.

These are my thoughts as well. I don't see how a dorm room would in any way provide a cat or dog with a good, even acceptable quality of life. It's too small and crowded, and no, it wouldn't be okay to let your pet wander the halls. Not to mention, in a dorm room, you're so close to the other students, what if allergy issues came up? In apartment style residences, it might be something different. But as you said, ESAs are just pets - they aren't trained at all. They may howl, pee on stuff, destroy furniture. I could understand completely why a university might be apprehensive about allowing random pets into their residences, considering how much universities struggle for funding in the first place. But if the person who needs the ESA is going to foot the entire bill if their animal causes damages, I don't see a problem, provided the animal does not disturb other students (no loud constant barking or howling). Maybe a solution would be for universities to have one apartment or whatever where cats and dogs are permitted, upon pet deposits being paid.

No one, human or animal, should be forced to live in a dorm room. That's my stance.

I don't think there really is such a thing as an ESA in Australia. Service Dogs for people with diagnosed mental illnesses, definitely, but not just for at home.

I'm not sure how public institutions would really get around federal law in the US because ESAs have to be accommodated in housing even where pets are excluded. Privately run universities I think are a different matter.

I think if you have a pet anywhere you should make sure your pet is healthy, happy, and well cared for. I don't think that standard should be dropped if you're not well yourself. If you have an animal to assist you, and you can't care for that animal yourself, you should have either another person to help you or you should have measures in place to make sure it gets done. I feel really strongly about this, and I own a dog and have a disability. He gets everything he needs even when I'm not able to do it on my own. I can't give him a proper bath and trim his nails right now, so tomorrow I'm paying a groomer to do that.

I am looking into getting a service dog, so I'm doing a lot of reading and people have some really conflicting ideas about what is necessary to separate the real from the fake. I don't think anyone should be forced to disclose their medical conditions, but I think a standard letter from a doctor confirming that the dog serves some sort of role (either as an ESA or an SD) in the management of a diagnosed condition wouldn't be too much to ask.

I think evidence of passing a CGC test or other behaviour test wouldn't go amiss either if they're going to be housed in a building with lots of people. PAT for Service Dogs.

Not all animals come from a training program, so it's perfectly legal to have your existing dog or cat as an ESA.
I think enforced regulation sort of strays into the territory of making people carry ID stating that they have a disability. It's not really a nice thing to think about.

From experience at the psych agency I work for - our psychologists basically never approve ESAs. Clients will come to us, set up one appointment, talk about how depressed they are and oh, by the way, I'm moving to a new apartment that doesn't allow pets, could you sign this form? Which is ridiculous, because the nature of this "official" ESA form basically has the psychologist put their job on the line by confirming that the animal is absolutely medically necessary. Since we do CBT, we would MUCH rather teach techniques to deal with stress and anxiety, which is frankly a lot more useful. We absolutely agree that animals can reduce stress, but animals are wild cards, too. ESAs aren't licensed, or trained, or distributed from an accredited organization. They are literally just pets. Our staff would rather help clients directly with the issues of anxiety and depression, not delegate the task to an animal. It isn't that we would say don't get a pet, but considering the official form they have to sign stating something that might not actually be true, there's not many good reasons to decide an animal should be an ESA.

And the issue usually comes up when people are moving. I believe that's one of the few "rights" ESAs actually get - they can bypass "no pets allowed" stipulations in residencies. I don't believe restaurants and other areas are required to honor ESAs as they would service dogs.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #3319 ]

Should universities allow "ESA" Emotional Support Animals in dorms?

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