[ SECRET POST #3359 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3359 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 047 secrets from Secret Submission Post #480.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

13. http://i.imgur.com/8TOCCxE.jpg

[(Anonymous)]

Don't forget the part where the same feminists supposedly deplore objectification of women but pick apart every last detail of a woman's anatomy in sneering detail.

[(Anonymous)]

You are reaching. How do you feel about doctors who need to study anatomy and examine people's bodies?

[(Anonymous)]

A WOMAN'S anatomy or a FEMALE CHARACTER'S anatomy?

[(Anonymous)]

You have enough straw there to make a whole scarecrow.

[(Anonymous)]

Sigh...clearly, you don't know what feminism is.

Feminism 101- the belief that women should be treated as equal to men and the recognition that we live in a patriarchy, thus women are not equal in a lot of ways.

"Picking apart every last detail of a woman's anatomy in sneering detail" is actually the opposite of what feminism is, as one aspect is about the the fact that women are compartmentalised, by their looks. Studies have been conducted and shown that both women and men see women in regards to their different body parts, as opposed to a whole person. An aspect of feminism is for society to regard a woman as a whole person ie; not just 'boobs, butt, hair" etc. If a woman is, in fact "picking apart every last detail of a woman's anatomy in sneering detail" she is being very anti-feminist.

I would like to add that I have NEVER seen any woman declare herself 'feminist' and then start to belittle other women ie; "I'm feminist but I'm now going to bitch about that other woman's thighs". Can you see now how ridiculous your comment is?

As for the original OP, I recognise this is a grey area.
I'll only say this. Oftentimes, when a man is 'shirtless' he is more than just 'sexualised'. A muscular torso has more symbolic meaning, in society than simply 'phoar he's hot!'. It usually also denotes strength, masculinity. Also, keep in mind that the majority of the time, the men are the main characters and not thrown in just to supply sex appeal. Therefore, they have agency of their own. Personally, I just don't see the "sexualisation of men" and the "sexualisation of women" as being the same thing, because of the two different ways that women and men are treated in society.

Then again, I do know other feminists who utterly disagree with me. Like I wrote, I think it is a grey area.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, F!S, we get it. Feminists=The Evul. Also, what about the poor men?

[(Anonymous)]

Is that Final Fantasy XIV?

I do agree with you. I think it's hypocritical to make sexualizing female bodies bad, but rejoice in male bodies being sexualized.

But in all fairness, to me, it's about equal representation. If one game has equally skimpy outfits for men and women, then whatever. If it's only the female characters, I get a little annoyed - and that's usually the case, it's just not the norm that male characters show loads of skin, and if they do, it's not often for the explicit purpose of being sensual. Furthermore, sometimes there might be one male character showing some skin, but all (or the vast majority) of female characters are in the same series.

So in that sense, I get being annoyed at female sexy outfits, but being pleased to see the opposite. It's a matter of representation.

However, the act itself of sexualizing shouldn't be different, male or female. (and for the record, I don't think it's bad, in the right place, right time, right character and right genre).

[(Anonymous)]

But don't you know that shirtless men is historically correct?

For example, in ancient Greece, athletes trained and competed in the nude.

[diet_poison]

Dude, do you even fandomsecrets...?

Though I guess it wouldn't surprise me much if tumblr actually is like this since it's so heavily populated by teenagers

[ketita]

The few blogs that I've encountered that talk about these issues will only "rejoice" at semi-nude men in either an ironic way, (i.e. OMG SO EMPOWERED, because that's what they always say about female characters), or as a bid for equality (you know, one skimpy male character to the 14,000 female ones).
I've also seen them pointing out especially when you'll have the male characters in very serious practical armor, and the female characters in chainmail bikini.

I have a hunch you're trying to stir wank.

[(Anonymous)]

The usual outrage at scantily-clad women in stupidly impractical armor is that the male characters aren't given the same treatment.

[(Anonymous)]

I think a lot of so-called feminists think it's okay to sexualize men in this way, because the history of women being sexualized is so long and ongoing. But, I mean, there's no magic number in which the sexualiztion of men can make up for the opposite.

This is one of those instances where I feel like...I know we can't and shouldn't *forget* the past, but I also don't think it's helpful to hold it up as a measuring stick like this. At some point we just have to say "that's how things were. This is how we're going to be going forward."

[nyvz]

Well now...any idea where this is from?

[(Anonymous)]

They probably realize it's not going away, so they might as well encourage more equality when it comes to fanservice-dudes, since that's what they're attracted to.

[(Anonymous)]

I think all games should have like... context appropriate outfits (armour, parkas, whatthefuckever) options, and ridiculously revealing fanservice outfits for every character. Then you can dress however you want in game.

[silverr]

I just want variety, in all things. I don't want all the instances of anything to be the same, because at the very least it's boring.

[kallanda_lee]

Well, personally I don't actually mind sexualization, I just dislike that it's disproportionally done to women...so in that sense, I understand.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm bi or maybe pan and different strokes and all but I don't understand being attracted to images like the one in this secret or the female equivalent, they do absolutely nothing for me. That said, I'd just roll my eyes and move on if pointless pretty/beefcake guys were as common as pointless pinup girls, but as it stands, I'd rather the numbers were even. Why shouldn't beefcake and cheesecake be equally common? I don't like either, but lots of people do.
I think random "sexy female" characters are gross or cringe-worthy, but so are random "sexy male" characters. Like, if that's their defining characteristic I'll buy a poster. Especially if it keeps them from taking up time in a narrative that would be a lot more interesting without them.

[(Anonymous)]

I can feel the meninist rage. I bask.

[(Anonymous)]

Because of cultural context, it's not really the same, so I wouldn't call it hypocrisy myself. Women have a history of being sexualized that men don't so I can't really summon up rage for women who do this. But I'm cool if someone doesn't like it.

[(Anonymous)]

Eh. My mental model here is that:

(1) cheesecake is not in and of itself bad
(2) there's a structural problem in terms of gender distribution of cheesecake
(3) there's something about the mode of female expression of cheesecake-liking that makes it more positive and less problematic than the default mode of male cheesecake-liking

but I mean, when I think about it, I really can't point to any details of what makes female cheesecake-liking better, so it's possibly not a strong hypothesis

[(Anonymous)]

I personally am with Oglaf. Ass armor equality.

http://bikiniarmorbattledamage.tumblr.com/post/109281654053/weve-featured-select-oglaf-strips-regarding-sexy

If it can get "feminists" who only care about shaming women to stop acting like a woman in a bikini is a personal crime, then I'm all for it. Everyone can enjoy impractical armor. All sexes, all genders.

[(Anonymous)]

As someone who enjoys both sexes in skanky outfits, I think sexy outfits should be an option, not a rule. It's why I like games with detailed costume customization. I like to have a sexy option (my male heroes love to fight bare-chested) and something fun but unsexualized (I love the challenge of making hero outfits that correspond to the season's fashion trends.)

[(Anonymous)]

So, I'm someone who enjoys sexualization in games. For example, I like games like Soulcalibur, Bravely Default, and the old Princess Maker games for many reasons, among which IS the presence of sexual / titillating content. So I honestly think sexualization can be a plus.

Here's what I think is the difference, though -- some of the most frustrating aspects of games with sexy women (including each of the titles I listed) is that it can make girls and women playing the games feel really unwelcome. This is because most of those games are designed, programmed, written, illustrated, etc. by men, with a mostly male audience in mind. What's kicking in (at least for me, and I suspect most other female players too) isn't "Ew, sexualized women, how disrespectful! What a nefarious attack on women's bodies," but more like, "...Crap, I walked into a boys' club again, didn't I?" It's kind of a rude jolt or realization that "This [book, game, store, building, class, job, hobby, whatever] isn't for people like YOU."

Sexy men (or just tongue-in-cheek over-the-top sexualization of men's outfits) has the exact opposite effect -- "I'm designing this game with women in mind." Or, "I'm self-aware enough to know that the industry has issues with the way it portrays women, and I'm trying to fight that by evening up the balance a bit." This has the effect of making women feel included in the production process or the target group, even if the makers and the gamers are still largely male.

I can enjoy all the games I listed above because they were either enthusiastically recommended by female friends whose tastes I trust (Bravely Default, and Princess Maker, which I got into when I was a kid because Sailor Moon fansites recommended them), or I've just spent so much time with them that knowing that they're fanservicey doesn't make them feel any less made for me (Soulcalibur). So I think that's why I don't mind the fanservice in those games (and why the fanservice is a positive aspect of those games for me), even if they all ARE very much part of the alienating effect that make women feel Other in the world of gaming.