[ SECRET POST #3365 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3365 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 070 secrets from Secret Submission Post #481.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

What villains would you like to see redeemed? What villains do you think are redeemable/irredeemable given canon or hypothetical circumstances?

Basically, let's talk villains!

Re: Inspired by #15

[philstar22]

I actually think a redemption for Saruman could have been interesting. I'm totally fine with the way canon went, but I think redemption is one of those few themes Tolkien didn't explore that much.

They aren't outright villains per say, but I would have loved to see one of the Feanorians genuinely repent and actually work more towards making up for what they did. Maybe Maglor once he's the only one left?

Dukat is another one I think could have had an interesting redemption arc. He was already partway there before he turned around and ran even further across the line. If his daughter had lived, it would have been interesting to see him learn to let go of his racism and be a better person. Then again, I love where they went on the show too.

Re: Inspired by #15

[kaijinscendre]

Loki because I know it will probably never happen (Thor 2 almost had it) and would fuel so much fandom drama.

Um...Magneto? But he is only sometimes a villain.

I can't really think of any villains that are super bad guys that I want redeemed.

Dr. Hilbert from Wolf 359 is probably the one that tops the list for me.

Re: Inspired by #15

[feotakahari]

It would be interesting to see Stain from Boku no Hero Academia turn against his former ideology and become a true hero. He inspired a lot of villains to follow in his footsteps, and I'd love to see him try to dig his way out of that hole.

Re: Inspired by #15

[diet_poison]

I have stronger feelings about the villains I *don't* want redeemed than the ones I do. I hope they don't redeem Kylo Ren after TFA because I feel like it would cheapen his choice to turn to the dark side and do the things he did in the story. Anakin made the same choice, yes, but it was under a great deal of duress and trauma, and that made him more redeemable to me, which is not the same thing as saying I think his actions are excusable. His choice was more tragic than Kylo's. We see their stories parallel so far as many of the characters in TFA did but I hope they break it off after this movie and have it go in a new direction.

I also dropped off AoS partway through season 2 (I keep meaning to get back to it but I fell behind because ABC only keeps their eps up for so long and no, I don't have Netflix, I know) but I still hope they didn't redeem Ward or if they did they did it right and very carefully. And I 100% do not want him to end up with Skye even if he is redeemed. No.

I wouldn't mind a redemption arc for Jasper in SU and I thought Peridot's was cute and not too bad but the ruling Diamonds? Nah, I'd rather see them taken down. I don't feel like Jasper *has* to be redeemed, but after Peridot and Lapis I wouldn't mind them convincing her to join their side and fight against the Diamonds, assuming that's what eventually happens.

I fell off Homestuck a long time ago, and I'm actually doing a reread now but I'm not yet caught up to the point where I left off - but I want a Vriska redemption so bad. My OTP was violently sunk (JohnVris) but unless more horrible stuff has happened since the point I left off, I think there is some hope for her character to be redeemed. Most of the trolls did shitty things at one point or another and I wouldn't say she's a super good person but there were times when it seemed she felt more remorse and empathy and then it was all squashed again :( she's an antagonist without really being a villain (and also a protagonist technically...an anti-hero maybe?) but still.

Re: Inspired by #15

[philstar22]

Have you read the TFA novelization? Because it expands on Kylo's backstory a lot. It turns out Snoke found him at 15 and filled his head with a lot of lies and basically brainwashed him. So personally I think the movie together with the novelization makes redemption feasible. And could be interesting.

What I'd really love, though, is a redemption story where he doesn't die and has to deal with the consequences of his action and spend the rest of his life repenting and making it up to the galaxy.

Re: Inspired by #15

[diet_poison]

That definitely helps. Wish we'd gotten more of that in the movie but you can only do so much in a movie I suppose. Still, he was feeling pulled towards the light side and in the movie at least it felt like he had to be very deliberate to stay dark. It was still way more of a conscious choice than it was with Anakin by my perception. He wasn't dealing with desperation from a dying wife either; that's a big factor.

Is the novelization good overall? Maybe I should check it out

AoS spoilers I guess?

[raspberryrain]

No, I think they finally killed Grant Ward off.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

Ward has not been redeemed. He's gotten much, much worse. And Brett Dalton is really knocking it out of the park with his performance.

Re: Inspired by #15

[scrubber]

My first thought was Vriska, as she's such a fleshed-out character that her having a proper transformation into a Good Person could carry a lot of weight if done perfectly.

The most pointless redemption arcs to me are the ones of characters that are actually very shallow. Like Kuvira's semi-redemption arc from Korra was painfully flat.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

The Hound, although he's probably more of an anti-hero at this point.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

Loki from MCU - it just feels like that's a natural progression of his arc so far

Eol and Maeglin - I just feel that there's more to Eol's hatred of the Noldor, and Aredhel must've found something redeeming in him (in the Silm version at least), and Maeglin did face the devil himself before he betrayed his people. I think if he hadn't been bottling up his feelings, he could've gotten help.

Feanor - I don't know if he is redeemable in canon but I'd like to see it.
Denethor - not sure if he counts as a villain but I could definitely see him finding redemption through his love for Faramir

Irredeemable - Turin, Celegorm, Curufin, Mim

Naraku - I feel like if he could get in touch with the human he was, and acknowledge his feelings for Kikyo, there's a .5% chance for redemption.

Knives/Legato - I had a sense that Knives could've been redeemed in the manga, and if he was, then Legato would follow suit

Re: Inspired by #15

[mimi-sardinia.livejournal.com]

I do know that according to notes that probably came from HoME Eöl was Tatyarin - i.e. the parent race of the Ñoldor. I also don't think he had a dislike of all Ñoldor, but definitely had one specifically for the Sons of Fëanor though.

I just wonder if the reason he did have that grudge was because he identified with the Sindar, or did he have a grudge because the Sons of Fëanor claimed land just eastward of Nan Elmoth, and Eöl felt threatened by them.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

Megatron...oh hello MTMTE nice to meet you. Redeemed political activist and now pacifist Megatron is a strangely fascinating character.

I'd kinda like to see Getaway redeemed too. And, because he is the one currently attempting to conquer the Earth and thus is a technical bad-guy, Optimus Prime.

I don't want to see Prowl redeemed, because Prowl is a Prick.

Re: Inspired by #15

[dancingmouse]

I was just about to mention Megatron and how I'd love to see him redeemed. I guess I need to start reading MTMTE.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

But... I like villains because of their villainy! Why would I want to see any of them redeemed?

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

I'd honestly like to see less villians redeemed. Sure make them complex and interesting. But also just let assholes stay assholes. I have a hard time picturing people who going along happily hurting people as all of a sudden having this grand change of heart.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

+1

I'm also annoyed by the trend I'm seeing in some of my fandoms where it's only OK to like the villain if you want him redeemed. You're not allowed to like magnificent bastards any more.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

I wish they hadn't redeemed most of the villains on MLP:FIM.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

Beryl from Sailor Moon. I dunno why, but I always felt kinda sorry for her and I used to write fics where she stopped being evil and made friends with everybody.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

I'd *like* to see a redemption arc for Loki, but I simply don't think we have the film real estate for it to be done in any meaningful way. I've had a discussion with a few friends that one route would be to borrow from Siege/Young Avengers and going down a variant of the kid!Loki route, giving them an opportunity for the inevitable recast of many of the leads down the road.

As per hypothetical, I hate being the person that wants to talk about their fanfic, so I won't do that. :P Let's just say I came up with a few ideas, but most of them involved him being metaphorically taken down to the driveway and backed over by a truck for a while until he took his own head out of his ass.

I'm interested to see where they go with Kylo Ren, as was discussed by a few other FS'rs particularly in regards to revelations from the novelization, but I want to wait till the second film to chew over a few more details.

Currently I'm considering the fate of the MCU version of The Punisher, but since I'm only on episode 7 of Daredevil... maybe I'll just wait.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

I'd say all of OUAT's big three, but then, I don't trust the writers to know how to hold a pencil, nevermind write a redemption arc, since the hero/villain divide seems entirely arbitrary: whether a given action is good or bad depends on who's doing it and what side of that divide the writers want the character to be on for that particular storyline.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

Omg, I love you. You put this perfectly!

I'd like to see a meaningful redemption storyline, even just one, but I'd like to see a leveling of the field more, where the goodies are muddied up a bit more. They tried with Snow (the candle, the egg) but it wasn't enough. The writers are rushing through the Disney catalogue too quickly and too shallowly to attempt serious storylines.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

I'm with the anons a bit above in not wanting to see villains redeemed. Temporary antagonists/anti-heroes who already have a shred of likability about them, sure, but not the honest-to-god villains. let them villain!

I mean, I could go around and around about Spike in Buffy...I never did watch his season on Angel, I already hated that show, but there's something interesting about there-but-for-this-chip-in-my-head Spike that later, "redeemed" Spike totally lacked. Too often, when an author/show-runner tries to redeem a villain based solely on the fact that the fanbase likes them and wants them around but the only way they can stay around is to no longer antagonize the main character/main cast, it just falls flat. Neuter the villain but give them nothing in place of their villainy and it doesn't work. See: the entirety of OUAT.

By contrast, I enjoy the villains in One Piece because some of them are wholly, utterly irredeemable and even those who no longer antagonize the main cast aren't really "redeemed" so much as given a different focus. Doflamingo is the worst piece of shit ever but goddamn if he wasn't intriguing. Crocodile is still a piece of shit even if he briefly helped Luffy - he's not a changed man, he's not redeemed, he's still an asshole who's probably wreaking havoc in the New World off screen. And Caesar, goddammit, that awful awful Caesar, saved lives but he's still a genocidal megalomaniac who won't change his song even under threat of death. The only "villain" who's gotten a redemption arc has been Bellamy, and it turned out amazing, mostly because he was never a Major Boss Villain, just a small-time antagonist of about five chapters during an arc in which Enel was the real villain.

whoops that got away from me. Rambling about One Piece usually does.

Re: Inspired by #15

[(Anonymous)]

None of them. Not because I think redemption isn't possible for some, but because the number of properties I've seen go about it in a reasonable fashion is miniscule. Most of the time, the writers don't really put the work in. They have the villain have a change of heart, they have the heroes be suspicious for a little while, and then they have the villain make some grand, heroic gesture, and suddenly they're redeemed.

Once the heroes have accepted the villains as one of the good guys, the writers start treating any character who doesn't just jump on board with it as though they're in the wrong. They're either big meanies who just have to open their hearts and realize the guy who was eviscerating people for funsies last month has changed! honest!, or they're framed as vigilante extremists. Suspicion against the villain is framed as hurtful and unfair, rather than, you know, a perfectly reasonable reaction to someone who's hurt and/or killed a whole hell of a lot of people.

There's almost never any real work put in beyond convincing the hero and their inner circle, and acknowledgment of the fact that forgiveness is not compulsory is even rarer. If the fact that the villain can't erase what they've done, or make up for years of malicious acts with a few months of good deeds is even touched on, it's treated as an angst point for which the poor woobie needs cuddles, and not something that yes, is factually true, but is not actually an excuse to go back to villainy. They've earned that loathing and mistrust, and they might never completely win their way free of it.

Give me more villains who, five years after their heel-face turn, are still on some sort of parole, are still meeting resistance and suspicion and dislike from the victims and witnesses to their crimes, where the narrative doesn't treat it like those people are being unfair, and maybe I'll stop cringing every time I hear the words "redemption arc".