fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3371 ]

[ SECRET POST #3371 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3371 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 059 secrets from Secret Submission Post #482.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So I've got this plot idea. It would dovetail really well with what was going on with the plot in the area of canon where it would be set, focus on the issues the main characters are going through...

The only problem is, it would need an OFC to make it work.

I've been burned with OFCs before. Even ones I thought were pretty well-constructed, I got accused of writing Mary-Sues.

I'm not planning on going into the OFC's POV; it would be strictly from the canon characters perspective. She wouldn't be romantically involved with either or the canon characters. But still, I'm not at all confident that I can write a character who won't be accused of being a total Mary-Sue.

Any tips/ideas, FS?

If you write a female character with any positive traits, someone will call her a Mary Sue.

But to avoid it: she needs to have actual character flaws, make mistakes, and not have everyone automatically love her even if it doesn't fit their established personalities or goals.

Okay here's the thing though: some people will accuse any OFC who is part of the plot of being a mary sue. Some people seem to think Mary Sue = OFC when really Mary Sue = character who is badly written

So like? Write a well developed realistic character, and you're good.

Do you really need an OC for the role? Have you reviewed your canon cast and previous guest cast to make sure there is nobody in there that could carry the role? Often making that small alteration, to make it a pre-existing character, will save so many Mary Sue tales.

If you write an OC then you will have to come up with a reason why the cast would accept them into their inner click, and why they would do so without however many years worth of shared background. It is less a matter of making a character, than it is having a reason why this character should fit in with a regular cast and why they should accept them without being suspicious. You need shared background, maybe even a few incident-of-the-week plots before moving onto your main plot (but not just sliding them into an existing plot and having them stand from the sidelines and give a few lines while the canon is repeated verbatim around them). Focus on why the character fits in, and then you'll find the character themselves. Maybe make them a transgirl, or a different ethnicity, or both, if that helps. Avoid another perky white girl, no canon needs more of those.

People are going to call any OFC a Mary Sue entirely because she's a female character. Give the exact same traits to a male character, and everyone will love them.

Write what you want. If people accuse you of writing a Mary Sue, ask them to give you specific examples of what made them think that. If they can't give you actual reasons, they're just being assholes and ignore them. If they have legitimate critique to give you, take it into consideration going forward, critique is good for you and will help you grow as a writer.

And if your readership stats go down, and reviews dry up, because of the poor writing and confrontational attitude, so what. At least YOU know what a good job you are doing.

"confrontational attitude"

You can challenge someone to explain themselves civilly, but if someone is butthurt because you ask them to explain their critique and justify and accusation that's their problem.

If you come at someone with an accusation, you should probably be prepared to give an explanation. if you can't even back up your accusation, it's probably bullshit. Someone expecting you to is not being confrontational unless they're aggressive about it.

Your logic does not follow at all - if the writing is poor, readers can give specific examples of where the problem lies and then the author can improve that. Asking for critique to be constructive isn't confrontational.

Why would a reader be motivated to do that. They've left their critique, if the author wants to act on it then they can, most readers are not going to get into a back and forth with an author (esp. since most get super defensive) over it. They have better things to do with their time than submit to a cross examination. You can demand they cite examples all day long, but most of the time they've made their point in the initial review and will do nothing except check the next chapter to see if it's been taken on board before bailing.

Re: How do I NOT Write a Mary-Sue?

a_potato - 2016-03-27 23:21 (UTC) - Expand

Re: How do I NOT Write a Mary-Sue?

(Anonymous) - 2016-03-27 23:30 (UTC) - Expand

Re: How do I NOT Write a Mary-Sue?

a_potato - 2016-03-27 23:38 (UTC) - Expand

Re: How do I NOT Write a Mary-Sue?

(Anonymous) - 2016-03-27 23:35 (UTC) - Expand

Or you pay attention to the part where I said take their responses into consideration and use them to improve in the future, because that's great too.

The reason I specified to challenge them for a reason is because in my experience, when people call out Sues, it's just by saying "wow what a sue but it's fine I guess??" or some variant, with no actual critique. If they leave proper critique from the word go, then follow up on that advice immediately because you've just found a rare gem in a see of assholes.

I think I might just start prefacing suggestions with "in my experience" at this point.

TBH I think the person who responded to you is just butthurt at the idea that to be listened to and taken into consideration they need to give more than an accusatory complaint.

I'm sure people like this would love to convince authors that they'll lose their readership if they dare to stand up for themselves and ask an unhelpful reviewer to expand on their accusation.

Re: How do I NOT Write a Mary-Sue?

aenrhien - 2016-03-27 22:47 (UTC) - Expand

People are not obligated to even comment that. They can just go "what a goddamned Sue" to themselves and backbutton out. Start following the advice here and only taking seriously when you get solid crit, that just is dumb advice amigo. You come back at the people who tell you it is a Sue and they will just be all "Okay, I'm walking away now" and you'll lose them all the faster. The only way to avoid Sue-accusation is by natural character development over time. Create your character as just a background extra with lines in another fic and over the course of a canon of work slowly increase their part one line at a time.

It'd help if you told us the canon you are writing for, of course, cause then we can advise you how to make your character best fit. Unless it is MLP they are not going to be accepting of a stranger interfering in their lives right out of the blue. Hell, even then. Some canon characters in other canons spend the entire run of the show from season one to season twelve refusing to accept any additions or new faces. You gotta be realistic about this and work with the canon personalities.

Re: How do I NOT Write a Mary-Sue?

(Anonymous) - 2016-03-28 00:25 (UTC) - Expand

I really don't understand this question. It's like asking 'How do I not shit my pants?'

Just don't.

You sound like a very helpful writing critic.

"Your character is a Mary Sue" "how do I make them not a Mary Sue" "Just don't"

To be fair, for most people without a medical problem or toilet training issues, it takes a tremendous effort to consciously shit one's pants. Writing a Mary Sue is a lot easier to do if you aren't watching what you're doing.

Now I want to try and shit my pants just to see if I have the ability to do it. I feel this experiment is a terrible idea.

SA

Well I hope you're happy anon. After all of today's easter chocolate, it turns out shitting oneself is much easier than expected.

I shitted my pants and it's all your fault.

Re: How do I NOT Write a Mary-Sue?

(Anonymous) - 2016-03-28 03:12 (UTC) - Expand

I'm seriously not getting where you're coming from. Why were your characters called Mary Sues in the first place? What reasons did people state when making that criticism?

No matter how well you write the OFC there will be someone who thinks it is a Mary Sue. The only way to beat the system is to not give a damn what others say about your OFC, and do whatever you want.

The problem is that there are people who just have an irrational hate boner for OCs, especially OFCs, so you'll never be completely free from Mary Sue accusations. All you can do is write the best character you can, like you would any other character. Make them human, give them real flaws, help your readers see them as three dimensional, well rounded people rather than stereotypes.

What I try to do is balance out a flaw with a "sue" trait. She may be very beautiful, but she's not good at socializing. Things like that. Sometimes I even use the Litmus test to get a rough idea about what's a "sue" trait and what's not.

No matter what, SOMEONE will scream "Mary-Sue!" Just ignore them. If you're character is interesting, has a few legit flaws and people like her, then keep doing what your doing.

But remember they've got to be genuinely bad at that trait. It cannot be the cool internet version or you get the Quirky Agent from NCIS who has a bunch of "negative" traits to balance out her brilliant brain and easy acceptance which make her cute and quirky and a rare canon sue.

It's almost time for today's secrets to be posted, so I don't know whether you'll see this or not, OP.

If you feel your plot requires an OFC, then write one. But stop worrying so much about Not Making A Sue--as others have pointed out, every original female character, without fail, will be called a Sue by someone, and there's no shortage of people who call every female OC a Sue. There are people who think that long hair, or being an orphan, or having a skill, automatically make a character a Sue. You can't control any of that, so don't worry about it. Worry a little more about other things.

Stop worrying, for instance, about whether your OC's has enough flaws to "balance" her strengths, and more about whether the flaws are consistent with the rest of her character. It's easy to see when flaws have been stuck onto an OC to lower her score on a MS Litmus Test, rather than growing organically out of the same history and temperament that her strengths do. (For instance, you might have a teen character who is really smart. Perhaps her flaw is that she is lazy and disorganized--because she has never had to learn to structure her time or work in a systematic way.)

Stop worrying that you need to heap dust and ashes on your OC's head before she can be admitted to the presence of the canon characters. Making her "ugly, over 30, scarred, incompetent or weak" (as I once saw an OC ficcer advised to do) won't magically make her a better character--it will just make her ugly, scarred, over 30, incompetent or weak.

Stop worrying that things like being orphaned, or having a painful past "automatically" makes your character a Sue; concentrate on not manipulating the reader by making the OC an object of pity.

Stop worrying that being talented, or even competent, automatically makes her a Sue--what makes for Sueage is when her talents make her the center of attention all the time, and reduce the other characters to speechless admiration or poisonous envy.

Remember that what makes a Sue is that she is in the story to be the center of attention--either to be adored, or to be persecuted like Cinderella because of her superiority to everybody else. She isn't in the story to further it; she's there to extract either homage or pity. She's a narcissistic wish-fulfillment of the author--a vehicle for the author's hunger for admiration, or the author's self-pity.

A day late but thank you. As a beta reader I am so tired of seeing people feel like they have to do a bunch of arbitrarily humbling to their character before they can exist.

Just let them be a character and do what they need to do. Don't overload them but you don't need to bring them down to below ground level just so someone will accept their presence.

Just let them be a character and do what they need to do.

Yes, exactly. One sentence encapsulates it all!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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DA

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