[ SECRET POST #3415 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3415 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 027 secrets from Secret Submission Post #488.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[ariakas]

But I can guarantee, if Tony were to try and take Bucky out, Steve would beat the shit out of him again.

Yes, but that's not because something has fundamentally "changed" between them. Steve would do it because Bucky is his friend, and Bucky is innocent. In other words, they're still at exactly the same point at the end of the film they were at when it started. To me that's deeply unsatisfying. Steve doesn't need to make a painful choice, he's just straight up right about everything from start to finish. If Tony had killed Bucky and Cap had still spared him - that, that would have been fucking breathtaking, you know? As it was it was robbed of all impact, because obviously, everybody's fine, he's not going to kill Tony.

As it was the chance to bring the theme of revenge full circle was squandered, "raised stakes" or no.

They might be fugitives and no longer the Avengers, but that's all plot, not character. The wounds between them are fully healed. Black Panther is now helping the "other side" and Tony if not outright helping them is quite obviously aiding and abetting them. They "ripped each other apart"... for like a day before the villain's plot was revealed and now everything is totes fine again. The fight between them was exciting and what happened to War Machine was impactful, but the resolution at the climax went out with a whimper the second you realized none of them was in any actual danger and it was three guys punching each other for a couple of minutes.

[(Anonymous)]

I still thought people were actually in danger, even if in the end they were fine. :( I agree, I don't think that killing people off would have automatically made the film better.

Plus, I felt like the phone was a "I know I screwed up, I'm sorry, and if you need us, we'll be there, but we're not really friends" kind of deal. Yes, the phone will be there, but it's not just to chat/hang out, it's need-based only.

[ariakas]

Yes but "killing someone would have automatically made the film better" is not at all what I'm arguing. Killing someone at a specific point in time would have brought full circle the underlying themes of the film, given Cap (or Bucky, or Tony) a truly difficult choice to make instead of an obvious one or none at all, would have fundamentally changed the dynamic between the characters in a lasting rather than superficial way, and would have given the villain's ploy teeth instead of leaving it flatly ineffective.

There is no "automatically" or because it would have "raised the stakes" in this argument I am making.

And I disagree. Tony is smiling to himself at the thought of his now "criminal" friends escaping while he puts the phone on hold to ignore a request to help stop them. They're now on "opposite sides" in name only. Cap and Tony were never super besties and they always disagreed about a lot of things, and now... that is still exactly what they are, even if plot-related circumstances have changed. It was a missed opportunity, and a letdown, imo.

[kaijinscendre]

Steve made the hard choice to prioritize Bucky over Tony. He also lied to Tony about Bucky's involvement with his parent's death.

Steve and Tony are not friends. Their relationship is not the same as it was at the beginning. Granted, they've never been super close. Just because Steve gave Tony a phone to contact him, in case the world is about to be destroyed, does not mean everything is okay between them. It means that Steve prioritizes the safety of the world over his own feelings.

And the villain got exactly what he wanted. The Avengers (who didn't sign the accords) are fugitives. If Captain America tries to go into a country to save someone, he can be arrested (if they can catch him). Their team is torn apart as well. Tony and Steve are not the only team members.

I don't know why you think Tony is helping them? It was never shown that Tony even knows they are in Wakanda. I don't think he ever realized Black Panther was there in Siberia.

I really think a death would be superfluous. Also, if Steve/Tony/Bucky killed any of the other group members, their character would likely be irredeemable to fans.

[ariakas]

Steve made the hard choice to prioritize Bucky over Tony.

How in the world is this a hard choice? Bucky is his best friend and war buddy whose life was in imminent danger. Tony is somewhat of a friend and a colleague who he's known for a couple of years and doesn't often see eye to eye with, and he's now clearly in the wrong, trying to kill an innocent man.

Really, how is this a hard choice?

And again, the no-longer-an-Avenger consequence is plot-related, not character related. It'll affect them in exactly the ways the writers choose, it won't have a lasting and profound effect on their relationships the same way death would.

Tony is smiling to himself whilst ignoring/needlessly delaying a request to aid in the capture of escaped criminals at the end of the film. I'm not really sure how not to construe that as "helping them" to be honest.

Well I agree that a random death would have been superfluous (hence mentioning Quicksilver in the first comment) and would not have served much of a purpose aside from "raising the stakes" as it were. But if any of Steve/Tony/Bucky had died in that final fight it would have dramatically improved the story for reasons of character development, theme, and narrative impact.

[kaijinscendre]

In prioritizing Bucky, Steve also became a fugitive and betrayed his team (Vision, Black Widow, Rhodey).

Tony smiling to himself (to me) felt like him recognizing that Steve is still a noble guy (that Tony wants to punch is his perfect teeth). It is also a throwback to Tony's comment to General Ross about thinking it is funny to put him on old.

I cannot see any way it would have dramatically improved the stories to have one of those characters murder the other.

Steve killing Tony would have been wildly out of character.

Tony killing Bucky would have resulted in an emotionally broken and devastated Steve Rogers (probably in jail) and is not an interesting character development to me. It the same, cheap character breaking that happens all the time in other media.

Bucky kills Tony. What would this improve? At most, Steve would be a little sad? It would also go against Bucky's character in Civil War. He spent the whole movie trying not to kill people. Hell, in that final fight, it looked like he was trying to disarm him.

[ariakas]

I strongly disagree with your interpretation of Tony's reaction in the end scene and the notion that showing grief after death would have been "cheap character breaking" but I respect your opinion. I didn't notice Bucky trying to disarm him (how do you disarm a power suit?) but I'll probably end up watching it again now.

Hah I guess we both could have had our cake if they'd made it seem like Tony killed Bucky, or at least to the point where Steve thought he did, but he actually survived. Then I'd get my truly meaningful decision when he doesn't kill Tony - and breaks the revenge cycle as a result - and you'd get your lack of a body count.

[(Anonymous)]

(how do you disarm a power suit?)

Taking out its power source, which is what Bucky was shown to try to do even in the trailer.

[kallanda_lee]

Black Panther was only an enemy because of a misunderstanding, though, and as I hate those sort of plot, I'm glad it was resolved. He's basically the one with the real moral solidity in the movie , not Cap.

And I disagree it ends where it started. I think Cap IS tainted because of this. And him leaving his shield, not even looking back, I find that incredibly powerful.

He effectively gives up being Captain America for his best friend, then breaks out the rest of his friends, and goes outside the law.

For perfect, polite, law-abiding Steve Rogers - that is massive character development.