fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3435 ]

[ SECRET POST #3435 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3435 ⌋

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nayrt but "forgiving" someone doesn't mean making them a part of your life. You seem to be taking forgiving to mean, lying down and taking their abuse, which is absolutely not what it should mean.

In real life it doesn't, but in most media it does. I assumed that was what the OP was talking about.

You seem to be taking forgiving to mean, lying down and taking their abuse, which is absolutely not what it should mean.

Then what should it mean? I'm genuinely curious, because that's the only definition I've heard of forgiveness ("it's okay that you hurt me").

The word comes from forgiving debt.

If I am owed $1000 by someone, and I forgive them, I'm no longer expecting them to pay me back. It doesn't mean I'll then be dumb enough to lend them another $1000.

NAYRT this is a really good answer and i will use it in my life!

To me that still means "it's okay that you broke your promise to pay me back." When not applied to debt, in my experience that still gives others the expectation that it's okay to treat you badly because they'll be forgiven.

Where does atonement come in? Would you feel differently about someone who was trying to repay you for what they did? Or would you feel like forgiving would only encourage the idea that they can get away with treating you badly as long as they do something nice after?

I'm not judging either way. I'm just finding the topic interesting so I'm curious.

The latter, because that's been the case all my life. Forgiving people has only opened the door for further abuse, and "atonement" was just to get me to forgive them so they could continue the cycle.

I'm sorry you've had to deal with so many people like that.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-31 01:17 (UTC) - Expand

Chiming in because it's kinda relevant to my history too.

I will accept atonement... when it's ACTUAL atonement. I've known some folks who were REALLY good at haggling what forgiveness entailed, arguing me down in my standards and then JUST barely meeting them, so they could continue the relationship.

But if someone ACTUALLY atones, then yes, I'll accept that. For me, that atonement generally entails, "I will state, in detail, what I did, and that I was wrong, and that I am sorry, and then I will state specific things I will do to insure it doesn't happen again." THEN I'm willing to take them back.

You're a greater person than I, because I can't even make it that far. I'm convinced anyone who tries to atone is lying or has an ulterior motive, because in my experience that has always been the case. They were never sorry for what they did to me, just that I found out about it.

(no subject)

lb_lee - 2016-05-31 01:28 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-31 01:40 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

lb_lee - 2016-05-31 01:48 (UTC) - Expand

For me, that atonement generally entails, "I will state, in detail, what I did, and that I was wrong, and that I am sorry, and then I will state specific things I will do to insure it doesn't happen again." THEN I'm willing to take them back.

Ha, I did that once. The person concerned sicced their husband onto me, who lectured me from on high about how this was not enough and I should make a fulsome apology (never mind the two instances of majorly crap behaviour that I'd already forgiven them.) I haven't had contact with them since them.

(no subject)

lb_lee - 2016-05-31 02:04 (UTC) - Expand

NAYRT--I think forgiving isn't so much about saying that someone hurting you or using you was or is okay, and can actually be as simple as letting go of the expectation that they'll apologize or even understand what they did wrong. It's not that you necessarily want to be friends or even ever speak to or interact with the person again. Like, if I'm a debt collector and I forgive someone's debt, it doesn't mean we're suddenly friends. But I also don't think you or anyone is obligated to forgive people who've hurt them. Do whatever keeps you safe and lets you live your life as best you can.

AYRT

It's really hard for me to reconcile that idea because that's not the definition of forgiveness I grew up with. To me, "forgive" means "telling the person whatever they did is in the past and doesn't matter anymore" because in the environment I was raised in, that's what it always meant. There was no such thing as forgiving someone and having no further contact.

What you're describing is "moving on" to me, not "forgiving." And that's basically what I do. I don't forgive anybody anymore because I never, ever want to give people the idea that it's okay to hurt me and get comfortable with abusing me. And in the world I grew up in, that's exactly what forgiveness does.

I'm really sorry (and I'm being sincere here, not passive-aggressive) that you grew up with that notion. It sounds unhealthy and manipulative. :/

Well put. I agree with everything you've said here.

I agree. Years ago I had a big fight with a former friend, and while we got over it and forgave each other, we haven't been friends since. While we aren't mad at each other anymore, we also aren't interested in being friends again because the fight highlighted some pretty significant differences between us that would've made it difficult to maintain the friendship. We both mutually agreed that it would be best for us to part ways after that.

I don't think it means that at all. forgiveness can be as simple as saying you're no longer voluntarily going to attach yourself to your abuser, because resentment is still an attachment. you don't have to interact with them anymore, you've just decided to move on from the past and sever that connection.

In my experience though, lending people more money is exactly what people mean by forgiveness. (I do believe that acceptance is a good thing.)
Acceptance is: You will never pay back the $1000 and I can live with that.
Forgiveness is: You did nothing wrong, I was the one at fault for being so selfish as to call it a loan instead of a gift. That was my bad. I'm sorry.

Like when someone in my friends group as a teen would get frustrated/annoyed at something else and lash out at me physically because I was the smallest and least likely to fight back. I started going "Hey, I don't want to hang around with Beth because she hits me." the others in my friends group pressured me to 'forgive her' because she didn't mean it, she just had some problems, it wasn't anything personal. I was expected to be 'the bigger person' about it. I was treated as the one being unreasonable for not forgiving her every time she hit me and never apologized, I was the one making things difficult.

I said screw that and left.

To me, forgiveness is for accidental harm, not for intentional harm. Intentional harm may get acceptance. I accept that her coming up to me and punching me in the face because a guy she asked out turned her down had nothing to do with me and is in the past and I no longer really feel any emotional connection to the event, but I don't forgive her for it.

I disagree with your idea of forgiveness. If you think the person did nothing wrong then there's nothing to forgive. There has to be some acknowledgement of wrongdoing in order for the concept of forgiveness to be relevant.

This.

Unfortunately, that's what a lot of people think forgiveness means. Especially in the devout religious circles.

Depends on which devout religious circles you frequent. In the ones I've known, people have a much more precise and sophisticated understanding of forgiveness.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2016-05-31 13:14 (UTC) - Expand

This. To me, forgiveness is saying "What you did was shitty, but I'm not going to be angry about it anymore."

There can be unintentional wrongdoing though.

Ok, personal one. I was doing the laundry and tossed in my roommate's hamper of clothes as a favor. Turns out she had left her phone in her pants pocket and it was ruined. I apologized! I promised to check pockets or ask before doing her laundry. She was mad and then she forgave me. I screwed up and did something wrong, but it wasn't intentional harm.

To me that's what forgiveness means, her coming to terms with the fact while it was fine to be angry at her phone for being destroyed and for being mad at me for washing it, it was the sort of thing that holding a grudge over it wouldn't have helped anything.

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