fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3526 ]

[ SECRET POST #3526 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3526 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Feed The Birds, from Mary Poppins]

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03.

(Once Upon A Time)

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04.

[ Dota 2 esport ]

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05.

[Great British Bake Off, series 3]

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06. http://i.imgur.com/82bEEum.png
[The Private Report on My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness; linked for nudity/implied porn, illustrated]

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07.

[We Happy Few]

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08.

[Stranger Things]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 32 secrets from Secret Submission Post #504.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I have a particular topic in mind, but didn't want to limit the conversation.

I'm working on a new friends-to-lovers fic right now, and damn if getting to that first kiss isn't hard. I've got everything after it all worked out but making that one leap is killer. And kind of crucial, because I very much want this to be something that happens naturally and not "Well, we've thought about it and talked about it and are now going to try a relationship! Here's our first date and kiss!!"

But it's also making me notice a trend I'm seeing in a lot of writing: Super clunky consent. Like, I just read something the other day where two characters were rolling around naked and one grabs the other's ass BUT DIDN'T STICK A FINGER IN, BECAUSE CONSENT!!! And, sure it was worded marginally better than that, but it was so jarring and really felt more like it was the writer saying "See guys! I know what consent is!" than anything else. And I'm getting that feeling a lot, lately.

And sure, I get it. Consent is sexy, in that it's sexy when two people who want to have sex with each other are having hot, sexy sex. But...it's not really all that sexy to read about, to me. At least not in the way it seems to be happening.

So, what are your thoughts on consent (IN FICTION)? Do you want to read about everyone making sure they get an OK for everything and laying down ground rules and whatnot beforehand, or do you want to assume -- unless given reason to think otherwise -- that these are two people who are agreeing/have agreed to what's going on? Put another way, is there room in fiction for actions to speak just as loudly as words?

Explicit consent in fic is like a bucket of cold water for me. My sense of eroticism is so heavily tied to danger and uncertainty.

But I'm probably in the minority there.

No, I don't need any of that. It's pretty much always jarring and awkward (just like the conversations about condoms, the need to practise safe sex, and HERE'S A 1500 WORD MANIFEST ON ACCURATE BDSM PROTOCOLS Y'ALL). I'd rather just assume that everyone is willingly aboard and knows what they are doing.

the answers you expect to get are already implied in your whole set-up...

but I think there's a middle ground for sticking your thumb up someone's butt and having a long talk about consent beforehand. like, things like testing the water, knowing from a shared history what the other person likes or doesn't like, giving and receiving signals of anticipation.

for your scenario I think it's all up to describing the implicit atmosphere of the room, which can be both a surprise and still imply it's about to happen. part of the fun is knowing the other is also anticipating something with joy, right?
but even then the natural start of a relationship is probably not going to happen without some awkwardness, and stating the obvious. it's still real for them, but for everyone outside of the moment it'll look a little dopey.

There's a big difference between consent-as-an-element-of-the-character-interaction in the sex scene in question (i.e., the consent adds something to the overall scene or is tied to something about the established characterization, or the overarching situation); vs consent-as-jarring-and-pointless-insertion-of-the-author's-voice.

If you want your sex to involve consent, the appropriate tone and aesthetic and style of writing has to be spread throughout the scene, not just "stylized porn, stylized porn, *SUDDEN OUTTA NOWHERE REMINDER ABOUT CONSENT THAT ADDS NOTHING TO THE SCENE* more stylized porn, more stylized porn..."

For example, this utterly winceworthy passage from a fic I've read:

"One thing he’d learned about Robin Scherbatsky was that she liked to be punished, liked to be controlled. She liked to be spanked, liked to be tied up, liked to dance on the razor-sharp edge of pleasure and oblivion. She liked to be shown the error of her ways. She was a textbook case of daddy issues. However, it never made her any less of a feminist because she believed that the point of women’s liberation gave her the choice to decide how she liked to get down. "

Like, lol, are you serious did you actually just write that last sentence and think "lol yes this won't throw anyone out of the story at all."

Depends entirely on the characters. Does this seem like something they would do? If it does, it's not going to be at all jarring. If it doesn't, it will be. It'd be as put off by extremely thoughtful and respectful character just jamming it in there as I would be thoughtless ones going through the whole song and dance.

There is room for actions to speak louder. Not just in fiction, to be honest, but in real life too - I wouldn't just make the assumption with another human being, but I know what I get like when I get turned on, and extrapolating from that: I think a wide-eyed, breathing hard, kissing and biting your neck, hands all over you, pulling you closer, person just shaking and writhing a bit in your lap and making pleased noises whenever you touch them back; counts as fairly enthusiastic (if unspoken) consent.

That said, I don't think a person leaning to your ear and whispering "can I touch you?" would ruin the moment. Or even to say "I want to-" whatever, to them. And let the other party say yea.

I'm always a big fan of the somewhat awkward blurted confession "I really want to kiss you right now" or just going for it in the heat of the moment and then realizing 'wait, did I just do that? Are they cool with it?' and the other reassuring them in some way it was very much wanted and appreciated.

Somewhat cliche, but eeh, when a topic is that popular sometimes you can't really avoid cliche

I like to assume everything's consensual unless otherwise stated/implied. As you said, having a big PSA in the middle of two (or more) of my favorite characters getting down and dirty just throws me right out of the moment.

As a writer, I try and work the consent stuff in naturally. Like a "Hey, can we try this?" or "Can I put this here?" Just quick little check-ins if the partners in question haven't already discussed things "on camera", as it were.

But that's mostly for the readers who don't think *I* know what consent is if I don't at least imply it. -_-;; I know, I need a thicker skin. I'm working on it!

I like consent in my erotica but that can be, "fuck me."

I was actually about to start a writing thread because I have a question. You beat me to it.

When exactly do you label something dubcon? I'm currently working on a fic. It is very clearly rape, so I'm labeling it non-con. But the whole thrust of the fic is this scenee where the perpetrator, who has previously been violent with the victim, works to break the victim by making him think that he wanted it just because the perpetrator makes it enjoyable and the victim's body reacts (the characters are Sauron and Maedhros if that matters).

So since that's the theme of the fic, I'm not sure if that counts as dubcon since I don't really understand what dubcon is, and I'm not sure if I should use the label or not.

I'd stick with non-con. To me, dubcon is best used when there's an external force influencing one or more of the people with no malicious intent from anyone. So, drunkenness, sex pollen, fuck or die, that sort of thing. Not so much the gaslighting that this sounds like.

Ah, okay, cool. I just wasn't even sure what dubcon really means. That makes sense. Yes, this is absolutely gaslighting by a villain who tries to break his victims in every way possible.

Maybe "Dub-con/Non-con" as one tag, to indicate that it could be read either way? With also "victim blaming", "forced consent"?

Also, tag it with "Gaslighting" or some variation thereof as per aiwasanartist's comment.

I've gotten to where I tag everything like that noncon because that's what it would be in real life, right? And frankly, I don't want dubcon fans reading my stuff because they'll just whine and bitch at me if it gets too heavy for them.

Dubcon and non-con are both rape, they're just different ways of it playing out. The way I see it, dubcon is when there's some kind of consent but that consent is compromised in some way.

Okay, that's good to know. I think I'm going to stick with non-con here because the compromised consent doesn't happen until the victim is close to orgasming, then at that point he asks for it. But before that he clearly says no and the perpetrator tells him he isn't allowed to say no.

Yeah, this. Dub-con and non-con are both rape, legally and ethically speaking, but are indicators in fanfic to describe how the rape is happening.

I would label something dub-con when they are pressured into consenting for sex, or seem to somewhat be into it which the story focuses on, or whatever. Still rape, but it hairsplits a fanfic subgenre imo which is only relevant in the fanfic world.

Non-con because even if the victim thinks it's dub, the rapist knows it isn't. To me, dubcon is when *both* the characters are in a morally grey area.

The way I've always understood noncon and dubcon is that noncon is without consent, and dubcon is when consent is, well, dubious.

A situation where someone is unwilling to admit they want to fuck the other one because they're embarrassed or think being gay is wrong, for example, is dubious. If the character is pushed into it while resisting, it's still rape because consent wasn't given to the rapist, but it wasn't that the willingness was missing, the consent was held back due to other reasons. Dub-con is when consent and willingness are somehow at odds with each other or unclear.

Manipulating and breaking the victim into consenting when they never wanted to consent in the first place is straight up non-con.

SA

So for example, a person who doesn't want to admit they're gay and totally want to fuck the other guy, being pressured into gay sex, is dub-con. The willingness is there but the consent isn't.

On the other hand, a person who doesn't want to fuck the other person consenting to having sex with them for some other reason - sex or die, aliens made them do it, et cetera - while still not really wanting to have sex with them, is also dub-con because the consent is there but the willingness isn't.

Thanks, that's helpful. This is definately of the perpetrator knows it is not consensual and is messing with the victim variety. It was clearly non-con in my mind, I just didn't know if I should include the dub-con label because someone else might see it that way. But clearly it isn't dub-con, so I won't use that.

Assuming the victim isn't attracted to the perpetrator and doesn't want to have sex with him before the incident or you know, something like that, sounds definitely like non-con to me. It'd be dub-con if he secretly were in love with him and wanted stuff to happen but felt it was "wrong" or something, but it doesn't sound like that! I'm pretty sure everyone will get its noncon.

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

philstar22 - 2016-08-30 01:39 (UTC) - Expand

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[ SECRET POST #3526 ]

Writing

Writing good love scenes/lead-ups

Re: Writing good love scenes/lead-ups

Re: Writing good love scenes/lead-ups

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Re: Writing good love scenes/lead-ups

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Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape

Re: Dubcon?-- Probably trigger warnings here for rape