[ SECRET POST #3575 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3575 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 35 secrets from Secret Submission Post #511.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

03. http://i.imgur.com/cvETJ4O.png

[kallanda_lee]

Can't blame 'em for trying to make money, but...yeah.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a little skeptical, at this point, of people taking the line about feminist analysis being flawed because Western. Because IME it's astonishing how often 'non-western-ness' gets positioned and used as a justification for just astonishingly awful shit. It just feels like it's used as nothing more than a stalking horse.

That said i have no feelings about this specific outlet. Idk anything, whatever.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm from a non-Western cultural background, and while I'm not going to say analysis of Eastern culture through a Western lens is useless, a whole lot of it heavily biased and ignores culture, context, and history in favor of calling out all the ways it deviates from Western norms which are accepted as superior and ideal without question... ironically from a stance that should really seek to question Western social norms just as much.

Analysis of Western culture through an Eastern lens is similarly heavily biased.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that the issue exists. But in practice, people in anime fandom seem more interested in gesturing at the idea and using it as a blanket defense against criticism than they do in actually engaging with the idea. Again, in my experience.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree some people use it as a shield to be dismissive of any criticism, which is unfortunate. But I can see where some of those people are coming from since so much of the criticism is bad. It's like 99% of fanfiction, you have to be willing to sift through the crap and lots of people aren't. :(

[feotakahari]

It took me a while to figure this out, but I think people have a more accurate view when they talk about "society" than when they talk about "culture." "Culture" tends to mean the dominant group, e.g. how "American culture" and "African-American culture" don't mean the same thing. By all rights, African-Americans are as American as anyone else, but "American culture" mainly means the culture of white people, because notwithstanding our current president, African-Americans as a collective don't have a lot of power. "Society," on the other hand, refers to everyone, and it seems like people who talk about "society" are more aware of how power structures intersect.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that's the best way I've heard 'culture' vs 'society' described.
Also completely agree.

[iggy]

Non-Western does get used to justify a lot of undeniably terrible shit. Like no, this moe pedo bait show is not considered 'normal' to like in Japan and it is worth criticizing. A very small subset of society likes it and most people probably think it's kind of gross? But if you say that to some people they'll just accuse you of being a prudish American.

But then on the flip you've got the people who insist that all magical girl shows written for a female audience are super feminist, even though, according to most Japanese feminists, as per their society, they're usually not. And of course, the infamous 'Kill la Kill is feminist' articles.

There's definitely a balance, but on the whole I'm kind of wary of a site called 'anime feminist'.

[(Anonymous)]

Wait... it being niche is part of the argument for criticizing it? I thought it was all about criticizing overall tendencies present in mainstream. What you're saying sounds kinda like "ugh this sexploitation shit show is not considered normal to watch in the US and should be criticized". No, FFS, it's a niche genre that has its own inherent value in the spectrum of things. it even serves as a lens through which we can critically evaluate the mainstream.
bashing subculture is NOT what criticism (feminist or otherwise) should be about, and it's exactly what leads to the stuff people call out as "western norms being forced on media from other cultures"

[(Anonymous)]

Um... no... the criticism has nothing to do with it being a subculture. And it's not saying it should stop being made. It's "Here is cultural context for the thing. Now here is what we find wrong with it from our own perspective. People who have a similar distaste for this kind of thing (due to being influenced by the same cultural norms, or for other reasons) will probably want to avoid it."

Why should people not be saved the time and annoyance of watching something they won't like just because the review they read was ~influenced by outside cultural values?~ They're not trying to influence what gets made in Japan. How hard is it wrap your heads around the idea of criticism =/= cries for censorship.

[(Anonymous)]

What is this secret saying exactly, you think Japan isn't sexist as fuck because they have some successful female mangakas?

[(Anonymous)]

I wonder if they know almost all female mangaka have to use male pseudonyms if they want to be successful writing anything that isn't specifically female-targeted...

(Yes, Rumiko Takahashi. Is the exception to the rule.)

[(Anonymous)]

There must be tons of exceptions to the rule then, because there are lots of female mangaka writing seinen or shounen using their actual names or female pseudonyms.

[(Anonymous)]

You don't seem to have read much or any of their site. They make it very clear that they have a Western viewpoint and no intent besides making anime accessible to Western feminist fans. And at the same time they definitely acknowledge female artists in Japan, even beyond anime and manga (example, though with borderline NSFW image: http://www.animefeminist.com/review-what-is-obscenity-vagina-kayaks-pussy-and-the-law/ )

I was skeptical at first too, but unlike you, I actually read the site to see if my skepticism was founded.

[iggy]

I read the site. I'm still completely wary. Their review of Keijo, for one, put me totally off. That they'd dismiss another show with a seemingly compelling pair of female protagonists because of one unecessary shower scene (Izetta), but seemed to go out of their way to praise Keijo as not that bad (it has body diversity! okay what), was beyond silly. They keep going on about how they have more male supporters than female. It might be because a lot of women are actually turned off by their approach.

And their insistence that this kind of site is something that isn't really done when female anime fans have been running blogs like this for years upon years is false and patronizing.

[(Anonymous)]

Did you read the follow up explanation about why they were okay with Keijo and not Izetta? It's because Keijo doesn't pretend it's not just a stupid fanservice show, so people who don't like that kind of thing can easily avoid it. OTOH they say Izetta is the type of show that's summary sounds like it's perfect for someone who wants an awesome female-focused show, then unexpectedly throws in fanservice at inappropriate moments. Even if they're brief and the rest of the show makes it worth it for some people, for other people it can ruin the entire thing because they had high expectations and were let down when it went there even for just a minute or two.

I don't think they're trying to tell you what to watch or judge whether a show "is" feminist. I'm still going to watch Izetta because I can handle a little annoying fanservice here and there, but it's nice to know to expect it. It's just summaries for people who want to know what to expect before getting into a show, coupled with the reviewers' personal opinions.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes. I've seen that kind of thing before, and I think it's a bullshit explanation? I get the frustration with that happening (to be fair to Izetta though, having seen episodes two and three I don't recall any similar moments in them, but being that the reviewer was going off about phallic guns I guess she considers that alone enough), but the idea that Keijo deserves to be treated as anything but trash from a feminist lens is imo laughable. And if you do enjoy it despite that, at least admit as much and stop trying to justify it. We're not THAT desperate for sports anime starring women. And that's not even a 'western feminist' thing. In fact, I'd argue it's much more a western feminist thing to even consider looking for value in a thing like Keijo.

I actually read a parody post making fun of things like the Kill la Kill is feminist powerpoints of yore featuring Keijo, and this review ended up reading similar to it, so that was kind of telling to me.

I don't really care about her opinion on Izetta individually as a show (I am enjoying the show personally, but not to the point I'd take personal offense at someone disliking it), but it does bug that she pretty much dismissed a show entirely for one instance of fanservice and then has made sure to assure us over and over how she doesn't hate Keijo, etc.

Again, I actually do think it's telling that the female patreon supporters are on the lower side. I have a pretty wide field of female anime fan friends, and we're by no means all likeminded, but I know a lot of them would be super turned off by many things about her approach to the site from what we've seen so far. Maybe some of her other contributors will provide better content, but so far, she's not cutting it, and her kotaku interview didn't impress either. I am all about anime reviews written for women by women, and I actively seek them out, but she's sent out so many red flags so far.

[iggy]

above was me. Not sure how I got signed out.

[(Anonymous)]

It's because Keijo doesn't pretend it's not just a stupid fanservice show, so people who don't like that kind of thing can easily avoid it. OTOH they say Izetta is the type of show that's summary sounds like it's perfect for someone who wants an awesome female-focused show, then unexpectedly throws in fanservice at inappropriate moments.

I am not familiar with the shows in question, but this argument definitely sounds like horseshit just on the face of it

[iggy]

I'm a little wary of it, yeah.

Mostly I am kind of confused by the editor of the site's continuous comments about how criticism of anime like this is just not a conversation that's had? Because that is just so distinctly untrue?? Women on the internet have been having these conversations for years upon years.

[thelesbianfuturist]

I don't think I like or respect your viewpoint.

[(Anonymous)]

That's okay, a lot of us don't like or respect your viewpoint either, considering you tend to sound like radfem anon who decided to get an account.

[(Anonymous)]

Whenever someone utters the words "fanservice" and "feminism" in one paragraph I get the hell out of there. That term is completely inflated beyond recognition and means nothing anymore except for "I'm uncomfortable with seeing these titties on TV". It's a cheap way to discredit aything remotely nude or body-centered as "only catering to the male gaze to get more viewers".
I distinctly remember how people eyerolled over how The Devil is a Part Timer thematized Chi-chan's tits and how it was "unneccessary fanservice ewww", while all I thought was "wow, that's kinda accurate" because I remember how the size of girls' tits was a topic from 6th grade up AMONG US GIRLS.
Sorry, I could go on endlessly about this, and stuff like this site just make me sad.