fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #477 ]

[ SECRET POST #477 ]

⌈ Secret Post #477 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 393 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 (lolol) 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 - personal attack ], [ 1 - person has TOO MUCH FREE TIME ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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A Sue is a character that kills suspension of disbelief, plain and simple. Nia never broke suspension of disbelief, hence she is not a Mary Sue. I don't think what you quoted for Nia from Wikipedia helps your point either, since Nia's traits were justified and she never went against what was stated as "logic" in the Gurren-Lagann universe. Kamina is not a Stu for similar reasons. Try reading what you post, please.

Really? I find it incredibly hard to believe that breaking the suspension of disbelief alone is enough to warrent a Sue label. You're telling me that nothing else matters when deciding if a characeter is a Sue or not?

Regardless, I think this is one of those "agree to disagree" situations. The term "Mary Sue" is broad and varies with each person, and everyone has a different criteria. I believe she's a Sue, you don't, and I don't think we're going to change each other's mind anytime soon. For what it's worth, I found this debate entertaining and wouldn't mind continuing, but I have a feeling we'll just be going around in circles. Bye <3

Breaking suspension of disbelief is not enough to warrant a Sue label but if you never broke suspension of disbelief you can safely state that your character is not a Sue.

I find that incredibly hard to believe, but to each her own <3

But the definition of a Sue is linked to breaking suspension of disbelief. You ¿re free to not like a character, but calling him or her "Mary Sue" when they never broke suspension of disbelief is unfair.

>You're

Fixed my typo.

I do agree with you that Nia has never broken any rules within the logic of the show, but I find that her other traits that I mentioned before are enough to compensate for this.

Once again, the term "Mary Sue" has become so skewed that everyone has a different version. Just because my defnition doesn't match with yours doesn't mean it won't match with someone else's.

But the rest of the traits you think that make her Sue-ish are not heavy enough even if I disagree with the fact that a character that breaks no rules of logic within a story could even be called a Mary Sue. You may dislike a character, even if think not liking her or any of the lead characters would kill half of your enjoyment of the show, but calling her a Mary Sue is still unfair. 80% of characters in fiction have tragic backstories. Princesses are a common archetype in fantasy stories. She EARNED the love everyone gave her with her trust, why would even Yoko hate her when she trusted her that much?

>You may dislike a character, even I if think not liking her or any of the lead characters would kill half of your enjoyment of the show, but calling her a Mary Sue is still unfair.

Fixed my typo on the second sentence.

I've believe I stressed this many times before, but it was the combination of traits that lead me to believe she is a Sue. Her purity, princess/Anti-Spiral heritage, appearance, and interactions with cast members TOGETHER form what is, IMO, a Sue. Sure, princesses are common archtypes, and many fictional characters have tragic backstories, but all these traits COMBINED form Nia. And I do like the majority of the cast members, and generally think Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is a pretty good show (if overhyped).

And don't worry about the typos, I make plenty of those myself ;)

I don't think those make her a Sue, they hold no weight in the large scheme of things. Still if you enjoy calling every character you dislike a Sue... feel free to do so even if consider it completely unfair.

When did I ever say I would call every character I dislike a Sue XD Seriously, you shouldn't put words into other people's mouths. I wouldn't call, say, Hinata and Shikamaru from Naruto sues/stus just because I dislike them. I only call character's sues if I believe they are deserving of the label, which I think Nia is. You may not agree with the label, but you opinion certainly isn't the only one. Like I said before, we're not going to change the other's mind anytime soon and I'm fine with that. I'm entitled to believe she is a Sue as much as you're entitled to believe she is not one.

The way you're FORCING Nia into being a Sue makes me think you would call any character not of your taste a Sue.

A little testy, aren't we? XD I'm not "forcing" anyone into anything. I'm saying she's a Sue and giving you reasons why. There's no need to get your panties in a bunch because we have different opinions. Believe it or not, not everyone agrees about everything on the Internet! A real shocker, I know.

The quality of something is subjective, I agree. You can like or dislike something. Mary Sue is nevertheless an adjective similar to "yellow" or "orange", no matter how much you want something yellow to be orange it will be objectively yellow since that's something inherent to the definition of the word itself.

Ther term "Mary Sue" is not similar to a color, because it does not have one constant definition. Unless someone's colorblind or something of that nature, a color will always be the same for every person. The definition of Mary Sue, on the other hand, easily changes.

If the term Mary Sue easily changes then it has no meaning whatsoever, why do you keep using it if it means nothing? A word that has no defined meaning is not a useful word. It's like if I invented a terminology right now and in three years the terminology meant a completely different thing... was there any point in creating said terminology in the first place?

Okay, now this is just becoming ridiculous. I'm clearly referring to how the term Mary Sue is used in present day on the Internet. When I said it easily changes, I mean it obviously has no one, true definition like the colors in your analogy and it's definition can change over time. The term Mary Sue primarily gained popularity on the Internet, and the Internet is hardly a consistent place. Various internet memes we have now will likely fade into obscurity, much like the term will 50 years from now. But we are here in the present, and must focus on soley the present definition.

And as for your hypothetical situation, the word will most likely change because people and their opinions will change. The term Mary Sue is very subjective, hence our differing opinions.

a) What I meant is that if the word means different thing for different people, then it isn't a useful word. The word "good" means the same for everyone, doesn't it? What does "Mary Sue" means? If we can't agree then it isn't a useful term.

b) The present definition of Mary Sue does not fit Nia. She is not a perfect character. Being physically beautiful is a given in anime. Her skills and traits are believable. And, most importantly, nothing about her breaks suspension of disbelief. Where do the Mary Sue idea fits in?

a) The word "good" definitely does not mean the same thing for everyone. Different values, religions, and cultures stress a different meaning on the word. What could be good for a Islamic male in a middle eastern country is probably not the same as what is good for a white, Christian female in a Western country, for example. And I've been saying this many times before, but I'll say it again: That's the whole core of our argument. We DON'T have the same definition.

b) Being beautiful is one thing, but just look at her: Does she seriously not fit the ideal image of a Sue with her special eyes and cotton candy hair? And I certainly don't find her skills and traits believable, but that's another reason why our opinions differ. And the suspension of disbelief card I've already discussed. I've already told you why I think she's a Sue, and I don't believe more elaboration is needed.

a) That's not what I meant. Good is always positive, no matter the culture the word "good" will always mean the same for everyone. If an Islamic guy tells you he thinks something is good, you can tell he likes it. You can't say the same thing of something like Mary Sue, specially since it isn't such a simple adjective.

b) Cotton hair and special eyes are a design quirk, they don't affect how she is written. How are her "skills" unbelievable? She has no skills whatsoever other than being charismatic and good with logic! You may think she is a Sue, but you're not making a valid case. The only reason she even looks flawless is thanks to Simon, they rely on each other and would be hopeless if not together.

Okay, I think we both understand that we're not going to change the other's opinion anytime soon. Frankly, it's late and I really have other things to be doing, no matter how complelling this debate is. I think she's a Sue, I gave you reasons, you disgreed with those reasons, and we've just been going around in circles without accomplishing much of anything. I understand you don't think she's a Sue, and that's fine; it's your opinion and you're entitled to have it. But what you fail to grasp is that I'm entitled to believe she is a Sue just as much as you're entitled to believe she is not. My definition of a Sue is different than yours, and because she fits my criteria does not mean she fits yours.

Although you might not think so, I thought it was an amusing and entertaining debate <3 Just a piece of friendly advice, though: don't jump to conclusions about the other debater. I recall you saying something along the lines of me automatically hating "larger than life" female characters and labeling all characters I disliked Sues. When you do things like that, it makes your side look weak and does not give a good impression, especially since you don't even know me.

Regardless, you did manage to bring up some good points. Although I still believe Nia is a Sue, I will try to use the term less loosely in the future.

You're entitled to believe yellow is orange or that 2+2 is 6, that does not make said belief correct. I don't see how Nia is a Sue and think most of your "examples" or "quotations" are for sure not strong enough to hold an argument as exemplified by how you basically ignored my previous reply that addressed them, but you're still free to keep holding to the idea that she is a Sue. Just expect people to rightfully correct, or if they're less kind perhaps even antagonize, you every time you express that "belief". :)

The reason I did not adress your points was because I thought it was clear that I was trying to close the debate, and adressing those points would just fuel the fire. I would continue, but discussing something on a secret post that's already 2 days old is ridiculous, especially when we know we're not going to change the other's mind. And as I have stated MANY TIMES BEFORE, the Mary Sue definition is not a constant term like colors or numbers, making that comparison weak.

But seriously, "The only reason she even looks flawless is thanks to Simon"? How does her appearance have anything to do with Somon? XD

Somon should by Simon in the last sentence, my bad.

Re: 35

(Anonymous) - 2008-04-28 20:07 (UTC) - Expand

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