[ SECRET POST #3635 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3635 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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06. [SPOILERS for Westworld]



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07. [SPOILERS for Westworld]



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08. [SPOILERS for Pokemon Sun and Moon]



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09. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #519.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[tabaqui]

Oh for fuck's sake. Lucifer got her pregnant against her will.

But she decided *on her own* to keep the child. Nobody was whammy-ing her when she eluded Castiel and took off.

[(Anonymous)]

I thought that the sequence of whatsername going along with Team Free Will, then Lucifer grabbing her and nearly strangling her while looking into her eyes (I think he said something but don't remember what), THEN her taking off on Castiel was pretty clear that he'd done something to her to make her want to keep it.

You interpreted the scene differently, but I don't think that reading that as Lucifer doing something to her was a completely illogical connection to make.

[tabaqui]

No, i didn't interpret it differently, I forgot about that ten seconds and had to rewatch to know it happened.

That's not a 'consent issue', it's a plot point with a demon (the father of demons) doing the same kind of horrible stuff to a human he's done ever since he was invented in the mythology of humanity.

[(Anonymous)]

Porque no los dos?

[feotakahari]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the Thermian Argument feels relevant to this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AxV8gAGmbtk

[tabaqui]

Well, it *is* relevant, but it's also sort of pointless? Kinky stories about kids, torture, whatever are generally put in the 'YKMV' column here in this community because the characters being discussed are 'fictional characters, not real people, and liking age-play doesn't mean you're a pedophile'.

So if that argument goes for almost everything we discuss here, why wouldn't it also go for SPN? It *is* fiction, and yes, real people *did* write it. And we - community we - as a rule point that out, talk about it, discuss it, sometimes stop watching things because of it. We - humanity we - also do our best to fight it, change it, spotlight it and make it go away, or at least make people more aware of it.

Supernatural is certainly not the worst show on TV with issues like this, nor the best. It's somewhere in the middle. So unless we're going to use this argument/idea/video on *everything* that's an issue here, it's no more relevant to Supernatural than it is to anything else.

[feotakahari]

Kinky, you say? I think there's a distinction to be made between pure porn and other fiction. Or maybe porn isn't the right word . . . I think there's some fiction that's very devoted to creating a specific reaction in a specific target audience, to the point that it's difficult to analyze it in terms of any reaction or audience it's not meant for. But I don't think Supernatural is meant to be quite as targeted as Backdoor Sluts 69 or whatever. Given the assumption that it's ever possible and meaningful to say "hey, this is really fucked up," I don't see why Supernatural would be one of the shows that's excluded from that.

Maybe we're starting from opposite premises here? When I write a story, I'm used to people saying "your orcs are a blatant stereotype of Native Americans" or "your trans character is offensively cliche" or "the only black character in your story comes off as a creepy pedophile" (all actual examples.) I think all of those critiques were misguided, but I wouldn't say they're irrelevant. Taking apart perceived bigotry and mistreatment is one of many valid reactions to fiction, and I'm not equipped to tell people they can't or shouldn't be offended by the choices I made when I created my stories.

[tabaqui]

I'm not saying exclude SPN from that - but I'm pointing out that that argument is used to *dismiss* 'problematic' things that we discuss in this community all the time.

Just in this post, we had a 'Willow is bi to me, but it's okay because she's just fiction and the writers kinda fucked up' comments. So - there's that argument, right there. And it happens all the time in this comm.

So does 'omg, that's fucked up, i won't watch that anymore!' 'you're right, me either!' comments and discussions.

I'm just saying - this is the first time I've ever seen this video/argument brought up, *ever*, in this comm, and i'm wonder why Supernatural in specific an not all the tons of other stuff that's offensive, problematic, etc.

(and the real and perceived 'problems' with Supernatural are and have been discussed ad nauseam in this comm and all over fandom for years, so it's not like it's been getting a break or anything)

[feotakahari]

A lot of the arguments I see in fandom are Watsonians and Doylists not understanding each other: https://fanlore.org/wiki/Watsonian_vs._Doylist Watsonians assume Doylists are really bad at being Watsonians, and Doylists assume Watsonians can't tell the difference between fiction and reality. I think the Thermian Argument isn't openly discussed much because understanding how it functions and why it's misguided requires understanding both Watsonian and Doylist analysis.

[tabaqui]

Interesting. Another theory/idea/whathaveyou I've never heard of. :)

[kaijinscendre]

Who is playing Lucifer these days?

[tabaqui]

Rick Springfield was for a couple/three eps, which was awesome. Lucifer's been vessel-hopping, since Sam is the only one who can actually *be* his vessel for any length of time without basically falling apart.

[kaijinscendre]

I wish OG Lucifer could come back. I loved him so much.

[tabaqui]

OG...?

[kaijinscendre]

Original Gangster. :P

IE Nick!Lucifer.

[tabaqui]

Heeeeeeeeeeeee.
He was pretty cool, i do admit. :D

[kaijinscendre]

I think he was my favorite villain on SPN, ever. He had the right amount of humor and menace.

[tabaqui]

I liked Alister best. His voice was so creepy-weird, and he and Dean/Jensen Ackles had this utterly creepy/horrible connection.....
*shivers*

[(Anonymous)]

they really used the Charlie Daniels' song lyrics in his dialog, hot damn..

[(Anonymous)]

He is! Not sure how exactly, but the writers have already confirmed that Mark Pellegrino will be back "in some form" this season

[kaijinscendre]

Aw yes. He might make me start watching again!