fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #482 ]

[ SECRET POST #482 ]

⌈ Secret Post #482 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 62 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Just because you like the other females doesn't mean that you can't be sexist about your hate for Ino; if you want to express that she's unintelligent and nasty (which I disagree with), why not say that instead of using a loaded term like "dumb bitch"? And while casually mentioning that you don't find Sakura attractive is one thing, calling her an "ugly whore" is still a misogynist slur regardless of whether or not she actually is ugly.

I admit I'm...kind of baffled by this response? I never said that sexism was the only problem Naruto or its fandom has, or even that it was the only reason all those things happen...just that it was part of it. And it's hard to deny that sexism does contribute to things like nasty name-calling in the case of the female characters in fandom (regardless of whether or not you might consider that name-calling "accurate") and marginalization of the female characters in canon.

Pointing out that sexism manifests everywhere, in ways both obvious ("ugly whore!") and subtle (relegating women to healer roles all the time), is not diluting the meaning of sexism, because sexism was never meant to only refer to vicious assaults and blatant discrimination. It was meant to refer to an ingrained social structure which consistently disadvantages women in ways great and small.

Word.

The whore part is, the ugly isn't. You're loading the words. Being ugly has nothing to do with being a woman. Which is why the ugly was the only part I took issue with.

And sexist would imply I do not like her BECAUSE OF HER SEX. That has nothing to do with why I don't like her. I don't like her because of the way she treats people (Specifically Chouji and his weight lost me, but there's other reasons). Disliking a female=/=sexist. It CAN be, but it alone isn't.

Calling things that aren't inherently sexist sexist is what dilutes the word. It's like crying wolf.

And my issues is I don't believe that in it's place, Naruto should be singled out for being particularly sexist (although it's not above an beyond, I actually believe it's slightly ABOVE the "norm" in anime. Like I said else where, no panty shots, very little fanservice (And the majoity of that is actually a boy male pretending to be a naked sexy female. I honestly don't know where that factors into sexism. Or Kishimoto's brain), realistic body shapes (Having boob that saize I'm particularly happy with Tsunade's body and the fact she's generally drawn with a bit more meat to her and boobs that sag), females that, although there's not as many of them, take an active role in fighting past the token tough girl....it has issues but if you're going to single something out as sexist I can bring to mind MANY more deserving animes.

And sexist would imply I do not like her BECAUSE OF HER SEX.

Me and the OP are both operating with a broader definition of sexism. That is, you don't like her because of particular ideas that you hold about women. It's not sexist to dislike a woman, but it's sexist to dislike a woman for sexist reasons.

And my issues is I don't believe that in it's place, Naruto should be singled out for being particularly sexist (although it's not above an beyond, I actually believe it's slightly ABOVE the "norm" in anime. Like I said else where, no panty shots, very little fanservice (And the majoity of that is actually a boy male pretending to be a naked sexy female. I honestly don't know where that factors into sexism. Or Kishimoto's brain), realistic body shapes (Having boob that saize I'm particularly happy with Tsunade's body and the fact she's generally drawn with a bit more meat to her and boobs that sag), females that, although there's not as many of them, take an active role in fighting past the token tough girl....it has issues but if you're going to single something out as sexist I can bring to mind MANY more deserving animes.

Just because there's stuff out there that's worse doesn't mean that you can't be frustrated with the stuff that is "decent" when measured up against other stuff. The worse stuff out there is irrelevent.

But the reason isn't anything I hold against woman. I would think ANY human being who told someone they needed to lose weight before they were liked is pretty damn scummy (And if a guy did it to a chubby girl in fandom, and was still expected to be liked...I'm sure that'd go over well). It would be sexist if it was because I thought she should be nurturing him, and making him a big old dinner to chub him up or something. I suppose I'd rather be sexist then biased against fat people.

And no it doesn't, but if I'm going to make a point of something, I'm going to choose the strongest point. There's both way more misgonist animes, and way bigger flaws in Naruto.

But women far more than men have long been judged too much by their appearance. So focusing on a female character being "ugly" as a reason to hate her is a manifestation of sexism (unless the person doing so also focuses on how ugly her least favorite male characters are, which does happen, but not as often).

I personally do not know whether your dislike of Ino has any relation to sexist attitudes. I don't know you well enough to tell! But if you express your dislike by calling her a "dumb bitch" (not saying that you do--but you opened this conversation by saying that it wasn't sexist to do so), that is sexist, because of the loaded connotations of "bitch" used outside relevant contexts.

Yes, there are many things about Naruto that I find female-positive. I hadn't thought about Tsunade's body shape as one of them (probably because I have a less curvy shape myself), but yeah, that's up there and I like the idea that it could help inspire a girl struggling with having a curvier shape than the norm. I think Sakura's arc, when Kishimoto bothers to pay attention to it, is a beautiful example of a young woman overcoming low self-esteem and bad behavior habits to kick ass.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't sexist aspects of it, and that those aspects don't frustrate the hell out of me. And just because other shows are worse, which they are, oh they are? Doesn't mean I can't pick on Naruto, too.

Yes, but you're being just in broad in assuming that anyone who honestly thinks she's ugly is sexist, as the fangirl are assuming she's a whore cause she likes sasuke (or however they justify it) And although it's arguable that whore is a bigger or worse insult then sexist. (Althought I'm not one for the "OMG don't take it so seriously!" because sexism is sexism, even if towards some on fictional)

I don't agree about the bitch thing, because I personal see it having it's sexual trapping lost, but that may be where I live, and not true in other places, so we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think bitch, like many other words, is becoming non-sexed, but just cause it is here, doesn't mean it is in the context of the person using it. I just also agree with calling a spade a spade, and sometimes bitch reaches my finger tips before asshole. In the end they're both meant to convey that I don't like her personality.

I am very curvy and it actually helped me a lot, after all my role models being twiggy little waif boys (Because I'm sure you can imagine if I cosplay Tsunade no amount of duct tape would get me anywhere near the chest of whatever 15 year old boy I was fanning :3).

I think it just bother me because you see so much bashing on the sexist bit of Naruto (And actually, rarely on the things I see as sexist, like the medic nin thing. although I'd rather see a boy being medic nin. A manly boy. Which possibly Dan meet one of them) and very little apperication of the female-plus part of it. And I also think fixing some thing would take away from the realism. Unfortunatly our world is not perfect, and there's, being a somewhat fuedal conflict based world, would be less so. Art imitates life, you know?

I'm not assuming that anyone who honestly thinks she's ugly is sexist. I'm assuming (in my opinion correctly) that anyone who calls her "ugly" in the context of "ugly whore" is doing so in a sexist manner. It's all about context. :)

Something I'd like to point out about the word "bitch," and its putative progress towards being non-sexed...

...when you see women called "bitch," it's sometimes a generic term of hostility, but it's also sometimes in the context of them being more masculine than is considered acceptable. More aggressive, more dominant, etc. A man who displays those traits would instead be called a dick or an asshole. When you see men called "bitch," it's almost always in the context of them displaying traits that are thought of as negatively feminine--being "weak" or whiny, for example. I don't think that means the word's becoming non-sexed; I think it means that the word is used against both genders when they transgress accepted gender norms, but still especially women.

Like I aid, I use bitch as a general swap out for someone being an asshole. I call, for example, Kabuto a bitch all the time (And not in...a sexual sense before you bring that up.) But like I said, you do have a valid point, BUT were you honestly only upset about those exact three phrases?

If we're going to be arguing the specific finer points of the language used in them, that's a valid point. Because I picked it up as "I hate fans who make the board negative generalizations against the woman."

If you use it that way, it's cool, but there's definitely an overall tendency to use "bitch" in a sexist way on both women and men.

For me it's a combination of being upset about the use of sexist language and assumptions when picking on characters (i.e. calling Ino a "dumb bitch" instead of saying "she's a shallow, insensitive jerk") and the tendency to hate on female characters in particularly vitriolic ways for nonsensical reasons (i.e., calling Sakura a whore despite her, uh, not being one in any way, or Hinata a stalker even though her scenes of watching Naruto are a relatively small part of her character...not to mention I've seen her bashed for being fat which is doubly offensive). Not just those three specific insults, but similar ones. Calling Tsunade a slut just because she has big breasts would qualify, for instance. (I don't think I've seen that, bu I've seen female characters called slutty for the same reason elsewhere, unfortunately.)

I do agree with the hating (I've seen the big boob thing applied to Tifa quiet often, and I've heard Orihime gets it. I think Tsunade escapes because she has no intrest in any of the males, the only possible challenge would be Jiraiya, and most o the squealing fna girls ~~are dumb~~have no intrest in him.

And sexism is a big issue in fandom, I just see so much vitrol of it aimed at Naruto (not the fandom, but the show.) that I feel like is a waste compared to something like...Najica or Gantz (Oh JESUS Gantz...) that could use some of that negative energy. Our discussion has lead to a more indepth discussion of what you're saying, to the point where even the parts I disagree with I understand, but I saw plenty of comment that were like "Yeah Naruto sucks for females." and I really don't think it does. (Maybe it's just coming from comic fandom when you're told to stop bitching about things like the Mary Jane figure)

Also, althought you do have a point that none of the males we CARE about are medic nins, there ARE male medic shown. They're just in the background, but in the chuunin and sasuke retrival arc there were males.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #482 ]

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