Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-05-01 05:48 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-05-01 05:48 pm
[ SECRET POST #482 ]
⌈ Secret Post #482 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 62 secrets from Secret Submission Post #069.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Then again, this is Hachi...
15- The musical being sub-par doesn't mean that it can't touch on real things. And even if something complete CRACK and horrid, if it helps YOU it doesn't matter what other think.
Also, Isabella > Angel.
23- I don't know your friend, but I tend to notice if people SAY they don't like something, even if they're giving signs to the opposite it may be because you're shoving it on them to hard.
40- Be amused as fuck. In a twisted way slight complimented, and maybe if it was done well...
50- I feel similar. They bash a 12 year old girl for having a silly crush? Are you kidding me? Hell, a shit load of girls would STILL be acting that way at her current age. And a kid who's whole family was murder before his eyes by someone he adored is an "Emo bitch who needs to get over it!" Gimme a break. Look at real life. My grandma killed herself when my mom was 11 and her and her siblings STILL have issues. You don't "get over" that. It's realistic, even if someone doesn't LIKE it.
54- I don't think calling Ino a dumb bitch is sexist. My opinion is based on things she does (And I I enjoy most the other females, faults and all, so you lose the sexism right there). Sakura's obviously canonly not a whore, as, as far as we can assume she's a virgin and has only shown interest in one guy, but if someone thinks she's ugly...not sexism, sorry.
Although I see some of your points, I also think you're forgetting a lot of things and forcing it into a sex issue (Which I'm sure there's plenty that IS, i.e. the medic thing, but...) If you throw sexism out there to replace valid opinion, etc, you lose the strength of the term. It's the same thing as yaoi fan girls calling EVERY thing against their couple/genre/whatever homophobic. If you over use the term, when it's ACTUALLY needed, it's worthless and weakened.
Gah Teal deer and I could go on cause you raise some interesting point but unless someone's interested in discussing I'm done.
no subject
Although I see some of your points, I also think you're forgetting a lot of things and forcing it into a sex issue (Which I'm sure there's plenty that IS, i.e. the medic thing, but...) If you throw sexism out there to replace valid opinion, etc, you lose the strength of the term. It's the same thing as yaoi fan girls calling EVERY thing against their couple/genre/whatever homophobic. If you over use the term, when it's ACTUALLY needed, it's worthless and weakened.
Gah Teal deer and I could go on cause you raise some interesting point but unless someone's interested in discussing I'm done.
A lot of it is rooted in sexism. There's an exceptional amount of needless hate for female characters, and I'd hardly say it's the same as a yaoi fangirl calling everything homophobic.
no subject
There's a somewhat exceptional amount of fail in females anime/manga characters (I say somewhat, because all fandom have their fair share of girls who hate the females cause they want the males (or want them together)). Which is getting better by leaps and bounds, and is due a lot in part, imo, to a cultural clash. What with things like tsudere (Which I am probably spelling wrong), which is the antithesis of what a lot of females fans want (As exampled in her secret by the fact temari and Tsunade are the liked ones), yet something considered desirable in Japan (And I am making broad generalizations here, because let's face it, there's as many opinions as there are fans)
But for a shonen series aimed at teenage boys, Naruto is pretty damned good about females. They're all strong to varying degrees (Even Hinata), although they do tend to fall into "roles" it's no worse or better then the males (The hero, the antagonist, the fat one, the smart one, the resilient one, the psycho, etc), and across the board he fleshes 'em out so they're not JUST stereotypes(I.e. The smart one is also the lazy as shit one, the sexy woman is also a 50 year old woman).
Not the best, most progressive thing out there, but you know, I wouldn't be reading shonen if that's what I was looking for. (I also wouldn't be reading Shoujo or watching sex in the city) And some of these things I see as realism...which unfortunately might over lap too much with sexism. But I know woman like just about every girls in Naruto to some extent or another (Minus the whole ninja, magic powers things), and some of them I know quiet a few.
no subject
There's no such thing as a "somewhat exceptional amount of fail" and the notion makes no sense whatsoever. Female characters in fiction do get shafted. I don't know what you're saying beyond that, so I'll just acknowledge that point.
Why do we need to add qualifiers like "for a shonen series aimed at teenage boys?" Should that really matter? Yes, of course the female characters are decent. A lot of female characters are way better than people give them credit for. I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make us. How does any of this change the fact that sexism runs rampant both in fandom and the source material for various fandoms?
no subject
And yes I'm sure fangirls paint females with this borad brush, but two generalizations (one being the fans girls, the other being the OP's opnion that disliking things in the females=sexist) don't make either right.
See, to me, females from anime and manga are much more shafted in personality, etc then in a lot of other mediums. Very few are completely sexual equal, but anime and manga is much less so. My phrasing got choppy as I was trying to use exceptional from your post an...eh. It failed.
As for shonen? Because I don't think something aimed at 13 year old boys is necessarily where to look for the sexual revolution? As long as it's not teaching them that girls are all sex kitten house wives...She was picking Naruto out as being particularly sexist. It has it's issues but I don't think it's particularly more or less (In fact I think slightly less) then it's....peers so to speak.
54 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-05-02 12:16 am (UTC)(link)I admit I'm...kind of baffled by this response? I never said that sexism was the only problem Naruto or its fandom has, or even that it was the only reason all those things happen...just that it was part of it. And it's hard to deny that sexism does contribute to things like nasty name-calling in the case of the female characters in fandom (regardless of whether or not you might consider that name-calling "accurate") and marginalization of the female characters in canon.
Pointing out that sexism manifests everywhere, in ways both obvious ("ugly whore!") and subtle (relegating women to healer roles all the time), is not diluting the meaning of sexism, because sexism was never meant to only refer to vicious assaults and blatant discrimination. It was meant to refer to an ingrained social structure which consistently disadvantages women in ways great and small.
Re: 54 OP
Re: 54 OP
And sexist would imply I do not like her BECAUSE OF HER SEX. That has nothing to do with why I don't like her. I don't like her because of the way she treats people (Specifically Chouji and his weight lost me, but there's other reasons). Disliking a female=/=sexist. It CAN be, but it alone isn't.
Calling things that aren't inherently sexist sexist is what dilutes the word. It's like crying wolf.
And my issues is I don't believe that in it's place, Naruto should be singled out for being particularly sexist (although it's not above an beyond, I actually believe it's slightly ABOVE the "norm" in anime. Like I said else where, no panty shots, very little fanservice (And the majoity of that is actually a boy male pretending to be a naked sexy female. I honestly don't know where that factors into sexism. Or Kishimoto's brain), realistic body shapes (Having boob that saize I'm particularly happy with Tsunade's body and the fact she's generally drawn with a bit more meat to her and boobs that sag), females that, although there's not as many of them, take an active role in fighting past the token tough girl....it has issues but if you're going to single something out as sexist I can bring to mind MANY more deserving animes.
Re: 54 OP
Me and the OP are both operating with a broader definition of sexism. That is, you don't like her because of particular ideas that you hold about women. It's not sexist to dislike a woman, but it's sexist to dislike a woman for sexist reasons.
And my issues is I don't believe that in it's place, Naruto should be singled out for being particularly sexist (although it's not above an beyond, I actually believe it's slightly ABOVE the "norm" in anime. Like I said else where, no panty shots, very little fanservice (And the majoity of that is actually a boy male pretending to be a naked sexy female. I honestly don't know where that factors into sexism. Or Kishimoto's brain), realistic body shapes (Having boob that saize I'm particularly happy with Tsunade's body and the fact she's generally drawn with a bit more meat to her and boobs that sag), females that, although there's not as many of them, take an active role in fighting past the token tough girl....it has issues but if you're going to single something out as sexist I can bring to mind MANY more deserving animes.
Just because there's stuff out there that's worse doesn't mean that you can't be frustrated with the stuff that is "decent" when measured up against other stuff. The worse stuff out there is irrelevent.
Re: 54 OP
And no it doesn't, but if I'm going to make a point of something, I'm going to choose the strongest point. There's both way more misgonist animes, and way bigger flaws in Naruto.
Re: 54 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-05-02 12:50 am (UTC)(link)I personally do not know whether your dislike of Ino has any relation to sexist attitudes. I don't know you well enough to tell! But if you express your dislike by calling her a "dumb bitch" (not saying that you do--but you opened this conversation by saying that it wasn't sexist to do so), that is sexist, because of the loaded connotations of "bitch" used outside relevant contexts.
Yes, there are many things about Naruto that I find female-positive. I hadn't thought about Tsunade's body shape as one of them (probably because I have a less curvy shape myself), but yeah, that's up there and I like the idea that it could help inspire a girl struggling with having a curvier shape than the norm. I think Sakura's arc, when Kishimoto bothers to pay attention to it, is a beautiful example of a young woman overcoming low self-esteem and bad behavior habits to kick ass.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't sexist aspects of it, and that those aspects don't frustrate the hell out of me. And just because other shows are worse, which they are, oh they are? Doesn't mean I can't pick on Naruto, too.
Re: 54 OP
I don't agree about the bitch thing, because I personal see it having it's sexual trapping lost, but that may be where I live, and not true in other places, so we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think bitch, like many other words, is becoming non-sexed, but just cause it is here, doesn't mean it is in the context of the person using it. I just also agree with calling a spade a spade, and sometimes bitch reaches my finger tips before asshole. In the end they're both meant to convey that I don't like her personality.
I am very curvy and it actually helped me a lot, after all my role models being twiggy little waif boys (Because I'm sure you can imagine if I cosplay Tsunade no amount of duct tape would get me anywhere near the chest of whatever 15 year old boy I was fanning :3).
I think it just bother me because you see so much bashing on the sexist bit of Naruto (And actually, rarely on the things I see as sexist, like the medic nin thing. although I'd rather see a boy being medic nin. A manly boy. Which possibly Dan meet one of them) and very little apperication of the female-plus part of it. And I also think fixing some thing would take away from the realism. Unfortunatly our world is not perfect, and there's, being a somewhat fuedal conflict based world, would be less so. Art imitates life, you know?
Re: 54 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-05-02 02:04 am (UTC)(link)Something I'd like to point out about the word "bitch," and its putative progress towards being non-sexed...
...when you see women called "bitch," it's sometimes a generic term of hostility, but it's also sometimes in the context of them being more masculine than is considered acceptable. More aggressive, more dominant, etc. A man who displays those traits would instead be called a dick or an asshole. When you see men called "bitch," it's almost always in the context of them displaying traits that are thought of as negatively feminine--being "weak" or whiny, for example. I don't think that means the word's becoming non-sexed; I think it means that the word is used against both genders when they transgress accepted gender norms, but still especially women.
Re: 54 OP
If we're going to be arguing the specific finer points of the language used in them, that's a valid point. Because I picked it up as "I hate fans who make the board negative generalizations against the woman."
Re: 54 OP
(Anonymous) 2008-05-02 02:51 am (UTC)(link)For me it's a combination of being upset about the use of sexist language and assumptions when picking on characters (i.e. calling Ino a "dumb bitch" instead of saying "she's a shallow, insensitive jerk") and the tendency to hate on female characters in particularly vitriolic ways for nonsensical reasons (i.e., calling Sakura a whore despite her, uh, not being one in any way, or Hinata a stalker even though her scenes of watching Naruto are a relatively small part of her character...not to mention I've seen her bashed for being fat which is doubly offensive). Not just those three specific insults, but similar ones. Calling Tsunade a slut just because she has big breasts would qualify, for instance. (I don't think I've seen that, bu I've seen female characters called slutty for the same reason elsewhere, unfortunately.)
Re: 54 OP
are dumbhave no intrest in him.And sexism is a big issue in fandom, I just see so much vitrol of it aimed at Naruto (not the fandom, but the show.) that I feel like is a waste compared to something like...Najica or Gantz (Oh JESUS Gantz...) that could use some of that negative energy. Our discussion has lead to a more indepth discussion of what you're saying, to the point where even the parts I disagree with I understand, but I saw plenty of comment that were like "Yeah Naruto sucks for females." and I really don't think it does. (Maybe it's just coming from comic fandom when you're told to stop bitching about things like the Mary Jane figure)
Re: 54 OP