fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3652 ]

[ SECRET POST #3652 ]

⌈ Secret Post #3652 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Lindsay Lohan and Eminem]

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03.

[Captain America: Civil War]

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04.

[Star Trek: The Next Generation, "Ménage à Troi" s03e24]

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05.

[House of Lies, Jeannie van der Hooven/Marco "The Rainmaker" Pelios]

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06.

[British comedians Jon Richardson and Russell Howard on 8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown]

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07.

[Yuri!!! on Ice]

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08.

[Judging Amy]

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09.

[Final Fantasy IX]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 43 secrets from Secret Submission Post #522.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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I mean, I'm bitter because gay guys at least get things where they're characters like this and the things in other sports anime. Japan has a big thing about not being super duper explicit and filling in the blanks, apparently.

But lesbians get a lot of fanservicey bullshit where they're fap fodder first and characters second. And as a lesbian, I'm intensely jealous that there's not much for me to watch. (And before someone recs anything with schoolgirls: don't.)

But this is like the only thing gay guys have that's like this? It's an exception? That's why it's so popular. And then, you still have critics who consider it fap material for fujoshi, as you can see in this very thread.

I've seen plenty of gay men in actual Japan like plenty of other things that weren't explicit like this was, it's just not what a lot of non-Japanese guys want. See: the difference between Japanese people getting pissy that homophobia wasn't even a thing in YoI but Westerners drooling all over it.

Quit trusting Western views for everything on this.

nayrt but what are you talking about? You can't generalize Western and Japanese views. And I highly doubt you can cite be a concise study that actually tries to. It feels like you are going off of persona anecdote and trying to pass that off as fact.

And by the way, the Yuri on Ice writer made a statement that in her universe, people would not be discriminated against for loving who they wanted, on her (Japanese) twitter. Are you going to tell me that every Japanese response was outrage?

No every, but a lot because a lot of Asia in general has a very big problem with not expressing the negative sides to being homosexual at all and wrapping it in a nice, pretty package for consumption in things like this. That's entirely the point. That Japanese writer is doing more of the same. It misses the mark for a lot of closeted people to actually not see themselves in these characters who are supposed to be them. It feels sanitized.

I mean, you can certainly make that criticism from your personal viewpoint, but don't say that's the Japanese viewpoint, or the Asian viewpoint. It's a viewpoint, period, and believe it or not, some people in the West have the same viewpoint.

I personally don't think the genre or the atmosphere of the anime would have been equipped to handle actual homophobia, and I don't think homophobia is required to tell a gay love story (as a gay person, it's refreshing to not have every gay story include an obligatory gay beating).

On the other hand, anime doesn't tend to EVER address homophobia. And I can see how it is a little glaring when Victor is portrayed as a gay Russian man - when there is phenomenal anti-gay violence going on in Russia right now Victor's behavior of publicly displaying homosexuality, like kissing and romantically embracing Yuri on TV, is near illegal. I can agree it's jarring.

But again, what was a light-hearted ten-something episode anime about ice skating and achieving your dreams supposed to do? Have Victor get beaten and murdered by an angry homophobe crowd? No thanks, not in this anime.

Anon above, get ready for Putin throwing a shit fit about this anime - the figure skating team loves it, families of some oligarchs as well plus Medviedew's daughter. Did not finish the anime as watching with mum who likes figure skating but heard it got renewed - please let them kick Russia some more. Or Poland even, not picky.

This was LITERALLY AND EXPLICITLY a world where there was, de facto, no judgment against people for who they loved. It wouldn't have supported homophobia any more than it would have supported unicorns--because both of those things don't exist in the world.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2017-01-04 00:38 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2017-01-04 13:00 (UTC) - Expand

See: the difference between Japanese people getting pissy that homophobia wasn't even a thing in YoI but Westerners drooling all over it.

It would have to be 100% an entirely different show if it addressed that.

And from what I've read, the Japanese LGBT response to YOI has generally been pretty good. Certainly some people aren't fans, but there's been a lot of positivity toward it and a general thankfulness toward portraying a nuanced, balanced m/m relationship.

That doesn't negate frustration over, once more, homophobia being treated as something that doesn't exist.

I both a lesbian and a self-admitted fujoshi and I have to say, I don't think you're right.

Gay couples are pretty much NEVER canon, unless they are in a BL-genre anime, in which case, they are going to be fap fodder first and characters second, as you said. There are very few gay anime that seem to be plot-centric first, and basically the two that come to mind are Yuri on Ice and No. 6. Otherwise, as you mentioned in sports anime, there will be possible homoerotic tension and ambiguous romance, but never anything canon.

While lesbian anime is similar, I can actually think of more canon lesbian anime than canon gay anime that, again, isn't of an obvious, more pornographic sub-genre. Off the top of my head, Kannazuki no Miko? I also feel like there are more canon lesbian characters as side characters in more mainstream anime, than the opposite.

I mean, both gay and lesbian anime suffer a lot from being gay-but-not-gay, where they will never talk about sexual orientation or anything, and just act like the plot necessitated the romance or whatever. Or again, it's more sub-genre, which is inherently more fappy.

But I really don't see one side of the coin treated differently than the other, honestly, I think they are remarkably the same.

Japan has a slightly different idea as to what they consider canon to Western viewers, talking to actually Japanese people. They literally do not get why so many Westerners are calling half the things we do queerbaiting, because it gets a similar treatment to straight couples in a lot of cases.

Also:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e3/Kannazuki_no_Miko.jpg

You're telling me this isn't sexualized at aaaaaaall. You have a really weird idea of what's not sexualized or fap-fodder when that is literally the first image to come up.

No honestly, I don't consider that image particularly sexual, but you're right that there probably is some sexualization, as the vast majority of anime has. It's kind of funny if you're trying to compare this to Yuri on Ice, which is full of naked men and ass shots and talking about coming. Between the two, Yuri on Ice has way more nakedness.

See there you go again with personal anecdote. I lived in Japan for years and went to my fair share of Comikets, and again, you CANNOT generalize Japanese views, or Western views. As for your point about difference in views about queerbaiting, sure, that's possible - also not what we were discussing - but due to Japan being behind many Western countries in regards to LGBT rights and representation, "queerbaiting" may not have the same social context, no. And on the other hand, there is still Japanese outrage when, for example, certain canon-BL games or comics (like Dramatical Murder) get anime-ized without any gay at all.

Which is fine, but that's a different goddamned context so quit acting like this is the same thing. And given there aren't going to be studies you're basically plugging your fingers in your ears and going, "LALALALALALA I DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT MY VIEW OF THINGS LALALALALA."

The difference here is, though, that men don't get sexualized like that nearly as often, whereas that's pretty much all us lesbians get so nice fucking try.

Your gay guys aren't sacred and I think I'm allowed to be a bit bitter that gay men are allowed to be characters more often than lesbian women are in Japanese media. It doesn't mean I like YoI less, it just means I'm frustrated so get off your high goddamn horse.

Women get sexualized more than men, news at fucking eleven. That goes way beyond whether the context is gay or straight.

Again, not even what we are talking about.

Gay men in anime get sexualized too, and in the genre of anime we're talking about, just as much, especially recently. Top fujoshi-targeted anime like Free and Yuri on Ice are full of ass shots and as much skin as possible. You absolutely cannot claim that there is no sexualization in these anime.

No, I don't have a problem with it, but I also don't inherently have a problem with female sexualization in anime.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2017-01-04 12:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2017-01-03 01:26 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2017-01-03 01:34 (UTC) - Expand

Uh, doesn't Kannazuki no Miko have a lot of rape and sexual assault in it?
Lmao you aren't really helping or proving your point here...

If you want actual anime with ACTUAL good lesbian representation, you should watch Utena tbh....

I recall it has one rape, but I guess if your argument is that any portrayal of rape is going to ruin an anime, then sure, don't watch it. It's still a plot and character focused gay anime, regardless.

There's still way tons of better yuri anime you could of picked though...
If you're gonna make a whole post about yuri anime, get some better taste lmao.

"good lesbian representation"

Maybe we watched different shows but wasn't one of them getting willingly slammed by her brother and the other ambiguously into the redhaired guy

Like, idk, as a lesbian I got exactly zero satisfaction from Utena

Anthy had no agency, so it wasn't so much "willing" as it was that she... Wasn't allowed her own opinions and thoughts, I believe. It's a huge plot point. As for Touga, Utena is bi.

Doesn't change that it's still largely suffering porn.

DA
Truthfully, as a lesbian, I agree with what you mean when you said lesbians tend to be used as fap fodder before characters. I feel it's what puts off many girls and women even liking lesbian stuff because the community has a sleazy rep by certain men into it. And i imagine at least yaoi-centered communities have other girls and women in it to make friends with, even if they're not even into yaoi that much.

However lately I've sacraficed fandoms and been reading more independently published lesbian western comics and webcomics and especially korean manhwa on lezhin, because I can't find anything that isn't school girls or moe in anime or manga. And old timey S-class (sister class) manga just isn't cutting it really. It's ever so lonely because I have no one to really talk about this stuff with TT_TT which is why I was hoping for yuri on ice to be a breakout girlslove series with awesome community and fanart... but alas.

I asked myself why I even got into anime aged 12 years old and I found myself answering "because of the relationships! And the cool action! And everyone looks cool!" So why isn't there any cool older lesbians/bis in lesbian relationships like yoi-ages with relationships beyond school girl scenarios with the same 5 plots? It's been 10 years since getting into this stuff and it's very frustrating I admit.

I'm even trying to work on making something my own :) (novel-wise, as I have a full time job and have never drawn seriously in my life haha.)

I thought I'd add on anyway that i found the yoi threads on /a/ really entertaining and it actually made me enjoy the anime. I did watch it to the end, and I thought it was very sweet throughout, many times exciting too. It's heartwarming to see gay/bi characters in same sex relationships be happy together so it was nice to see it just for that. Seeing Yuuri go from "I'm running out of time to achieve anything" to gainimg a partner, silver medal, and the friends he made along the way, was also very heartwarming.

The main theme being Yuuri's internal conflict is why I'm guessing there was no space nor necessity to the plot for a homophobia arc, although I feel more shows should take this "homophobia doesnt exist"/"a world we want to aim for" route to avoid rehashed plots and melodrama and get the characters together, and /then/ use other forms of conflict in their stories that isn't gay crisis or cheating, but rather have characters being interested in eachother as a secondary plot point and the main plot be something entertaining.

But definitely, as a lesbian, it's difficult finding shows that are directed for us (and that don't suffer from bait and switched on dead lesbians/bis and also don't suffer from "Never met a lesbian" syndrome :U)

Re: non-moe/schoolgirl lesbian manga: yuri-heavy Dynasty Scans has the tags "Adult Life", "College", "Office Lady", and "Non-moe art" that might lead to some stuff of interest (though you still run into the fap fodder/tragedy stories).

Anon, you might gotten into anime a bit too late or early as lgbt themes golden age flew by. Was into sci fi mostly and would not say it had any relationships at centre unless toxic ones. However, I can mention what my friends liked. First would be indeed Sailor Moon but manga as heard it had quite a lot of lgbt couples. Haibane Renmei was about fallen angels living in one house and it had been about depression, never watched it but seemed pretty unsexualised. Utena was mentioned by someone. Noise was about a couple that was assasins but seen an episode but it did have some fanservice. Awfully unsure about Serial Experiments Lain as my brother watched but he does not remember why he thought main character was a canon lesbian. Read or Die was bordering with uncomfortable fanservice. Maria-sama ga Miteru was about a conservative boarding school and mental issues but no idea on quality. Madoka is newer and about reversed magical girls trope but heard it is more subtext. Wandering Son's protagonist is bi but ends up with a woman, have started it but never finished so she might have been a lesbian. Read plenty shorter mangas with grand characters but never remembered titles.

Madoka and Utena are very much tragedy porn, unfortunately.

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