fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #487 ]

[ SECRET POST #487 ]

⌈ Secret Post #487 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 223 secrets from Secret Submission Post #070.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"Well-written" is such a vague term, though, and ultimately it's up for interpretation whether a character is well-written or not.

In my view, Peter is horribly badly written. I don't know if you agree.

According to some people in fanom, all female characters have been badly written, so it's okay to bash them. Call them whores, ask for them to be killed off, etc. Someone once said that the only well-written female characters, in her view, were Claire and Molly, because only they were "good and pure". Her words, not mine. It seems like female characters have to meet very, very high and specific expectations before they count as "well-written".

I can't tell if you're complaining about other people or ascribing to me motives which I do not share.

I don't find Peter badly written although I find him kind of stupid a lot of the time. I enjoy Pcest but it took me a while to get to the point where I thought Peter deserved Nathan, lol. I think that as a portrayal of a fairly privileged rich brat who hasn't had to think too much and needed a good whacking to start doing so, Peter is OK. If I'm meant to think he's something other/better than that, then he's badly written. One of the problems I had with S2 was that after all the effort put into growing Peter up, he lost his memory and became stupid again. Gah.

I have difficulty with the whole "it's OK to..." thing. I think if you are going to call a character a whore, you need to have some evidence for this assertion. Otherwise I'm going to dismiss it as BS. I like Niki, but you could make a case for "Niki is a whore" as she is in fact a sex worker; Maya, not so much.

I think it's perfectly okay to want characters you don't like to be killed off or otherwise written out of the show as long as you accept you may not get your wish.

My impression (based on what fans, creators and characters say) is that Peter is actually supposed to be that selfless, kind person who cares for everyone. Hence why I find him badly-written. He's a self-centered jerk, and he's dumb. And he is apparantly dumb not because the character is supposed to be dumb, but because writing him as more intelligent and thinking instead of "But Nathan/Adam would never do that!" would make him too powerful. There are possibly other ways of limiing his powers, the amnesia was actually a decentone, although it was badly executed because he still could access his powers, although he supposedly has to remember the original user in order to access it. Whatever. Peter is a walking plothole, and the series would be better off without him, in my opinion.

I think it's perfectly okay to want characters you don't like to be killed off or otherwise written out of the show as long as you accept you may not get your wish.

Well, yeah. And did you notice how people complained when Maya survived the finale? That's where it crosses the line and becomes immature whining.

If Peter is supposed to be selfless, they're Doing It Wrong. I've heard that he is before. I don't actually know what Kring thinks, sometimes because I don't actually think that he does, very much.

(I have some theories about this, most of which involve the inability of the writers to deal with gender-variant behaviour. It has always annoyed the crap out of me that Empath Boy had to go and rescue Indestructo-Girl when logically, it would have made a lot more sense the other way round...but people who look like Milo Ventimiglia are not allowed to get their asses saved by people who look like Hayden Panettiere.)

I did not notice people complaining that Maya survived. But then I was kind of avoiding the fandom then because of all the omg-if-u-hate-maya-ur-a-racist crap that was all over my flist and because there was a particularly unpleasant altercation between me and someone who was offended that I hate Maya because she's a caricature of an ethnic stereotype and would quit watching the show if Nathan died because I love Adrian Pasdar more than anything and wish he would get on a show where they actually used him well and didn't keep killing him.

(I think how you perceive Maya hate has a lot to do with who is on your flist. I have way too many people on mine who think everything is political, but I love them as people so I bite my tongue a lot. That time I didn't and so it got bit by somebody else.)

Edited 2008-05-07 00:17 (UTC)

Hi, I was one of those people who complained when she survived. Why? Because she was a stereotype, an irritating stereotype that I really, really wanted to see eliminated from the show, and killing her would've been the most graceful way to do it. Right now, I'm dreading having to watch Kring et Co fuck with what white people think about Latinos again. That plot made no fucking sense--because people from the Dominican Republic totally enter the US from Mexico--and it made Maya into a trope, the Latina who is subject to violence, who is naive, hyper-religious and domestic, who brings with her an un-identified plague from "South of the Border" and is a threat to white, American society. Yeah, I want to watch that again.

So go ahead, call it whining. But I'm tired of watching this stereotype paraded in front of America as "diversity" and I hope they get rid of her quick.

I read that in your journal but I didn't process that as complaining she lived for some reason, probably because I feel the same way about her that you do.

because people from the Dominican Republic totally enter the US from Mexico--and it made Maya into a trope, the Latina who is subject to violence, who is naive, hyper-religious and domestic, who brings with her an un-identified plague from "South of the Border" and is a threat to white, American society. Yeah, I want to watch that again.

Maybe it's because I m not American and these problems are not mine, these stereotypes are not mine so I don't actually recognize them, and still see a person where you see a stereotype, sorry.

I never perceived Maya as a plague from south of the border threatening white American society. Probably because the only Americans died from Maya's power because of the manipulations of another white American, namely Sylar.
Heroes has always shown white Americans as the greatest threat to themseves and to the rest of the world. I can't really agree with deeming Maya a threat to white Americans when Sylar just went and murdered Derek.

Heroes uses stereotypes, that's hardly new, and that's hardly limited just to the South American characters. So instead of developing Maya's character further, so everyone who is at all willing can see that South American immigrants can be nice and well-intentioned people who have good reasons for having to go to the USA, you would rather see her killed off. I am sorry, but I don't think this would do any good at all, and I don't think it would honestly make you happy either.

I should be in bed now, though. G'night.

Agh, and sorry, I think Maya's and Al's difficult route to the USA was mostly made up in order to make it a long, tough journey for them. It is justified in the story by Maya having left the Dominican Republic for another country even before she thought about going to the USA at all, so they started from there instead of the Dom Rep?

To me, to someone who deals with this every day, Maya and Alejandro coming through Mexico was another stereotype. It looked like Kring et Co threw a dart at Latin America, hit the Dominican Republic, decided to go with that as a country and make it fit the plot. That whole freakin' subplot seemed like someone read a few things about Latin America on Wikipedia, watched some telenovellas, decided they knew what to do and went with it. It said "all Latinos enter this country from Mexico illegally." It said that "all illegal aliens are a threat." And I know you don't see that, but I do.

Maybe it's because I m not American and these problems are not mine, these stereotypes are not mine so I don't actually recognize them, and still see a person where you see a stereotype, sorry.

Then you need to stop talking, start listening, and recognize when someone from the US, who also happens to be Latina is telling you about American attitudes and the impact of stereotypes of Latinos in this country. Maya isn't a person, she's a fictional character on a television show that is rife with all the racial tensions and troubles in America. And as someone who deals with that on a daily basis, when I tell you that this is what Maya represents, think about why I might be telling you that.

I want strong, well-written, intelligent Latinas on television. Maya isn't. She's never going to be that. She's never going to be developed into that because the people who write her don't know how to write minorities and people of color. The entire stable of characters on Heroes proves that they have problems with stereotypes on that show, and instead of introducing new token characters in order to prove how enlightened they are, I'd really rather Kring et Co develop the characters of color they have. Don't tell me that seeing Maya further developed would make me happier than seeing her killed off. You don't know what my particular experiences are as a Latina in the US. I do want her written off or killed, either way, because she is a fucking embarrassment to me.

Why are you still watching Heroes, if you hate their general portrayal of characters of colour so much, and are absolutely certain that this won't improve?

I don't really think that American shows misrepresenting a non-American culture, or an ethical minority, is anything unusual. It's rather the standard,and I guess it shouldn't be anymore, these days, but it is. Not just for Heroes. It is still a wider, not solely Heroes-related issue. At least Heroes made me like most of these coloured characters more than their white colleagues. If that means I am watching it wrong, I don't want to be right.

Why are you still watching Heroes, if you hate their general portrayal of characters of colour so much, and are absolutely certain that this won't improve?

There's a strawman. You're setting it up that if I have standards when it comes to racist portrayals of characters in media, I'm being too picky and should just stop watching. (Because ignoring problems always makes them going away and heavens, talking about them, that's never, ever made people more aware of what's happening around them.) If I stopped watching all programs that had problematic characters of color, I couldn't watch any media that comes out of the US, or quite possibly anywhere. I like Heroes for a lot of its good points, but when the race issues in the show are bad, they're horrible and Maya was one that was particularly vile. She's particularly vile because she's loaded down with all the baggage Latinas face in the US, and because Kring et Co trumpeted this season in interviews as being multi-cultural and more diverse, and instead of giving any thought to the character, they plopped down these stereotypes and then expected us to be grateful.

If that means I am watching it wrong, I don't want to be right.

Please. I'm not telling you you're watching it wrong. I'm telling you why I, an American of Latin descent, has problems with the way Latinas are portrayed on this show. Instead of listening to that, you're dismissing me as being, apparently, too picky in my media, and if I'm going to watch a show, I'm not allowed to have problems with the way they portray people who are my race, ethnicity, religion, or gender. I'm supposed to accept it as it is and never, ever critique it. I'm going to critique my media, no matter what it is, and I feel perfectly justified in doing that. And if you think that's whining, then that's your problem. But here's a clue: not everyone hates a character because they're being petty, or they're a racist, or whatever you may think about people who dislike Maya. And if you would listen to the people who are telling you, from their experience, that Maya represents a whole lot of problems in America today, you might actually begin to understand that.

But hey, if you just want to accept your media whole, no thought required, no critique, go for it. Watch the show however you want.

Please. I'm not telling you you're watching it wrong.

I did not really manage to put my thoughts into words very well last night, I guess. Or this morning, if I remember correctly. Either way, I was utterly confused with this.
Like I said, I have grow up in a different country with different minorities and therefore, it's just a fact that I watch a show like Heroes differently, and have other triggers. As a matter of fact, this "dangerous immigrants carrying a disease thratening Americans" never was triggered by the storyline, and if anything, Maya and Alejandro shaped my view on the issue positively.
I was wondering if I should tell you this in my last reply, but guessed that you weren't interested in this, since it does not actually have anything to do with your situation. I guess people can easily interprete this particular sub plot to mean something negative, but it is possible to draw positive conclusions from it as well. I do. Sure, another story could possibly have achieved it better, but still.

What I still don't agree with is the attitude that Maya should be killed off. I don't think this would help anything. It would not make people be any more accepting of a new South American character. Sure, Heroes has flaws like whoa, but there are some characters who started out as stereotypes, but have been developed beyond them. The Japanese geek, the corrupt politician, the black ex con. They all got development, which revealed complex and likeable characters behind the stereotypical first impression.
I am no way convinced that this is definitely going to happen with Maya. Heroes is so huge and loaded wth characters and plot threads that it's impossible to predict what the story will be like and which characters will be focused on, and which marginalized.

But if I made the decisions, then Maya would get development. Killing her off at this point would be equl to admitting she was just a token. There are aspects to her personality that get ignored by the fans in discussions, and those aspects would never get acknowledged at that point, and wat could definitely have become a fun character would have been destroyed. It'd be a waste, and it would be giving in to a lot of immature people. I'd hate that.

I'm sorry if this is long and rambling. I'm tired like hell.

Of course I don't ask of you not to reflect on the shows you watch, and not be critical of them. But I personally don't watch the shows that I think are truly offensive or stupid, so I'm not sure why you could still stick with Heroes if it has disappointed you so much.

Of course I don't ask of you not to reflect on the shows you watch, and not be critical of them. But I personally don't watch the shows that I think are truly offensive or stupid, so I'm not sure why you could still stick with Heroes if it has disappointed you so much.

Obviously she still cares. It's very rude to say, "why do you even watch this show if you hate it so?" Obviously she doesn't hate it. She hates what they're doing now, which is not the same thing, but it still has a chance to redeem itself.

Unlike you, she likes the Petrellis a lot. That's why I still watch it, too. I have said before and I will say again that the day they actually kill Nathan is the day I stop watching this show.

The thing about Heroes is that it isn't just one show, it's several shows, because it has multiple story arcs, so you can totally love one or two of them and get so disgusted with some of the others that you find yourself hard-pressed not to take your bathroom breaks during them, except that you know you're going to hate it if you miss something plotty. And that is how we felt about Maya and Alejandro, man.

(I can talk like this about littlewings04. She's my best friend and we're on the phone every day, so I know where she's coming from.)

But I also think you're wrong.

I don't think Hiro started out very "stereotypical". He started out reminding me of guys I knew in Japan. Real human beings, not a collection of manga-type problems. I went to Comiket with a friend who was just like Hiro and every time I saw Hiro on screen I wanted to find Kenji's email address and ask him how he was doing even though I don't think we've talked since I last left Japan.

Nathan is not a cardboard, stereotypical character. He's not a corrupt politician, he used to be the crusading DA and now he has to choose between his ambitions and his morals, and he has family problems, and...I love Nathan Petrelli like burning so I better shut up now. (The Mafia thing, that was a problem for me at first, Italians doesn't equal mafiosi dammit--but then it turned out to be Linderman, not Don Corleone.)

The black ex-con, that one I'll give you. I ALWAYS had problems with that, just like I have problems with the fact that Foreman, a black doctor, had to be given a ghetto criminal past and had to take crap about it from House. And you know what? DL didn't get much development and I never liked him a lot.

Now, Hiro in s2, part of the reason I was so mad about that is that he DIDN'T start out as a stereotype, and yet in s2 he became one. This also happened to a lot of other characters in s2.

Personally I think you love Maya for what you see as potential in her. There's nothing wrong with you feeling that way. People have become fans of characters who are nothing more than a throwaway name in a book. A character which is not developed is a great screen to project your stuff on to. But probably most of what you love about Maya is what YOU put on to her from inside your own head. And you believe in it so hard that you have the gall to tell my best friend she doesn't understand Maya as a Latina five minutes after you admit in a previous comment that you're from another part of the world and you don't have these ethnic conflicts where you live, even though my best friend is an ACTUAL Latina.

(NB: If you are from somewhere else, listen to what people who are actually from here have to say about things that are supposed to be happening here. If I saw a show about your country I wouldn't tell you you don't understand or interpret your own culture correctly. That's common courtesy.)

Edited 2008-05-08 07:27 (UTC)

Anyhow, you think Maya should be developed more, and there are some Latin fans who agree, but littlewings04 finds her portrayal sufficiently insulting that she thinks it would be better if Maya were axed and replaced with a new, more realistically drawn, more humanised Latin character. Those are both valid points of view and you have no business characterising our point of view as "immature" because you happen not to agree with it and have failed to present us with any logical arguments against it (because you don't actually know our country or her culture very well).

Furthermore, you can tell us all you like that people are ignoring various aspects of her personality but so far you've failed to point out any specific ones. "Nice" and "well-intentioned" and "good reasons" are the vague kinds of things people say when they can't think of anything really positive to say about someone. You know when you're being set up on a date if you ask if the person is good-looking or intelligent or witty and you're told only that "he's nice" that you're in for a boring evening. Maya's not the kind of character that littlewings04 wants representing her ethnicity. I so do not blame her for this.

I agree with littlewings04 more than you, but it's a moot point in the end because the show will do what it does. Some of the people who wanted Maya to die were being skanks who were irritated that she got in the way of Sylar/Mohinder. I get that. That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who hate Maya for the very good reason that:

1) she's a poorly-written character with little real personality

and

2) she is a collection of insulting stereotypes about Latin women all rolled into one big burrito of badness that some people don't want to swallow.

I'm glad you like her. But you know, back in the day, I used to be a big fan of this character named Blaise Zabini. Who I thought was this Italian guy from Italy and probably gay or bi and Draco's first love and all this stuff...that was my own projection of what I wanted him to be. When we finally found out what he was like he was a black kid who grew up in England who chased girls all the time. I'm sure you think Maya is a great character. I'm just asking you how much of the character you think of Maya as being is really there in the actual canon and how much of it your subconscious mind has filled in the blanks. There was a huge wank when Blaise Zabini turned out to be black. Why? Because people had an image of him that turned out not to be true and they really loved that image. I always wonder when somebody gets really attached to a character that is full of cliches or mentioned in passing how much of what they see there is what they put there. And there is nothing wrong with that, but you need to own it so that you don't get mad when other people who have different stuff in their heads can't go where you went with that character.

Anyhow, it's late and I'm going to bed.

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[ SECRET POST #487 ]

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