Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2017-02-18 03:51 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2017-02-18 03:51 pm
[ SECRET POST #3699 ]
⌈ Secret Post #3699 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
__________________________________________________
02.
__________________________________________________
03.
__________________________________________________
04.
__________________________________________________
05.
__________________________________________________
06.
__________________________________________________
07.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 42 secrets from Secret Submission Post #529.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
And this right here is why you're an asshole. You basically just said "I can't be bothered to be polite".
Why is there value in using your time to contribute to a conversation but not using just a wee bit more time making your statements not assholish?
no subject
the time you spent trying to make sure no-one can call you an asshole could be better spent by doing just about anything else
That's not a wee bit more time. On the internet, that is an impossible challenge, because no matter what you're saying, no matter how clear or polite you are someone will call you an asshole for not doing what they think you should have done, Either because they misunderstand, or they want to misunderstand, or the way the view things is bent to misunderstand in the worse possible way. I find it better for myself to be as polite as I would like others to be to me, and if that's not good enough then fair enough.
no subject
"There's no point in trying to be polite because I might upset someone anyway" is also a shit reason to not even try.
I mean I'm not going to talk you into doing it differently, clearly, but it just comes off to me as super lazy and self-important that you won't even bother trying not to be a dick to people because sometimes it might happen anyway.
no subject
It's a threshold thing. I'm polite enough for me. I'm not saying it's a great deal of effort for me to be polite, I'm saying it's too much effort to be POLITE ENOUGH FOR YOU. Or whoever else is out there thinking I'm just not good enough. I try to be polite, to a standard, to everyone, it's a gradient, not a binary. It's not "Polite or Impolite" which is how you seem to be grading me, which isn't that just great for you, because then you get to judge me. I'm polite to a point, what I feel is a reasonable point. Like not calling people names. You think YOUR standard is THE standard, and that if I'm not polite enough for YOU then it's just that I'm not polite at all, I'm putting the standard (Your standard) amount effort in?
So again, as you are, I have to assume deliberately missing the point of what I am saying, let me fix ye another attempt from you to butcher what I am saying into sounding like the absolute worst: "There's no point in trying to be polite enough to meet everyone's standards, or anyone's standards but my own because I WILL upset someone anyway and they then feel like the get to call me names becuase I'm not up to their standard."
And you know what I know this is a stupid emotional outburst, and I know it lessens me for doing it and i accept that, but at the same time, how fucking DARE, you of all people in this, how dare YOU call ME self-important.
Yes, maybe I am self important, maybe I am a dick and an asshole, maybe my own personal standards aren't good enough for you or anyone else. Maybe my standards are the very fucking bottom, but you, sweetheart are right down at the bottom with me, you hypocritical jerk.
no subject
This is way too much hostility for me to deal with though so have fun I guess.
ETA: changed my mind. Honestly, I wasn't really mad up until this point but now I'm pretty pissed off. You just had a complete angry yelling outburst at me and going back to the beginning of the thread all I did was call you a dick for making a really insensitive sexist joke. Sorry you don't like being called a dick. When you say sexist things I will call you one. And it's not hard to not say sexist things. When you said you said it deliberately to piss someone off who you don't like you lost virtually any "moral high ground", to borrow your phrase, you might have had.
This isn't about "winning" like you might seem to think. I hate casual sexism a lot and I called it out, way more politely than a lot of other people would, and then got a bit sidetracked by your smug and completely unapologetic response, but I still stand by everything I said. I've been polite the whole time, if blunt. I never said "fuck you". I called you a dick because I thought you were acting like one and you were completely unable to handle the interaction like an adult.
Me calling you a dick is not worse than you making a sexist joke, so please back off and don't make this all about how I'm so mean and came here just to pick on you or whatever you think is happening. I don't give a fuck if you don't like me. But I'm not a fan of someone coming into a community I'm familiar with, injecting negativity, and then getting super riled up and mad when I confront him on it.
I would have said the same thing to anyone who made that joke, just so we're clear. It's not about you.
no subject
No, that's not your bad, you're entitled to feel however you want.
"and then acting smug about it."
I don't think I did, but whatever, if that's how you want to interpret me. I thought I was trying to explain myself without being too defensive. Maybe I failed, or maybe you are just really unwilling to bend on the idea about what I' am, what I'm saying, or how totally justified you are.
"Now I'm pretty pissed off"
Good. So was I.
"You just had a complete angry yelling outburst at me"
I did, and it was unkind so I am sorry.
"and going back to the beginning of the thread all I did was call you a dick for making a really insensitive sexist joke"
No, you said my joke annoyed you, which as I say is entirely your prerogative - even telling me it annoyed you, while I'm not sure what you were hoping to achieve is still your prerogative. It was me refusing to apologise for annoying you - which is my prerogative - that started all these personal insults from you. Several insults. And several attempts to twist my words. That's all you did.
"Sorry you don't like being called a dick."
Who does?
"When you say sexist things I will call you one."
When I say sexist things, you do what you must and in fact even if all I do is make a joke based with sexist flavours, you can still do what you want, but when someone, anyone, says something you admit was a joke - I.E, not something meant to be taken seriously, and you then seriously insult them for it? Well, I will try not to do any more of those "angry yelling outburst" but you might want to get used to them from everyone else, because that right there is cause and effect in action.
"When you said you said it deliberately to piss someone off who you don't like"
Not quite what I said. That person already seemed pretty pissed off with little to no provocation. I said it because I thought "Why the fuck not it might get a laugh, and it's not going to do any harm." A minor distinction, but given how you seem to be habitually mischaracterizing what I'm saying, either by accident or design, I'm not going to let anything slide.
"This isn't about "winning" like you might seem to think."
And that is why you will LOSE
"I hate casual sexism a lot and I called it out"
Very fair. I can agree with that. I don't think a JOKE, something designed to be a parody of casual sexism is the same thing, but that's just going to have to be a difference between you and me. But if you want to "call someone out" and claim it's in the name of politeness, if you'll take some advice: Be better at the politeness yourself, otherwise it just comes off as "Do what I tell you to do, not what I do".
"way more politely than a lot of other people would"
Oh, so it's "I'm ok to be impolite because other people would be worse"? that's the standard you hold yourself to? Fair enough. I expect better from myself, personally <-That was smugness right there. No denying it.
"and then got a bit sidetracked by your smug and completely unapologetic response"
I would be willing to argue the smug, but I really don't think I owe you an apology for annoying you. And if i did, you reacting to my lack of an apology by insulting me cancels that out, in my opinion.
"but I still stand by everything I said. I've been polite the whole time, if blunt."
REALLY? I mean, really? You can tell yourself that I deserve it because I'm the bad guy here, but you can really look at your conduct in this thread and call it "polite, if blunt"?
"I never said "fuck you"."
True
"I called you a dick because ... you were completely unable to handle the interaction like an adult."
I don't think I need to comment on the irony in this, do I?
"Me calling you a dick is not worse than you making a sexist joke"
I disagree. I mean that's the thrust of this isn't it. You judge your action as acceptable because you judge my actions as unacceptable. AND then you called me an asshole because my reasons for not being too bothered by that "unacceptable" behaviour was also unacceptable to you.
"so please back off and don't make this all about how I'm so mean and came here just to pick on you or whatever you think is happening."
I can see the pot, so the kettle must be around here somewhere...
"I don't give a fuck if you don't like me."
Me either, but it might surprise you to learn that I actually did / do like you other than this little bit of "Do what you're told, not what I do" exchange.
"But I'm not a fan of someone coming into a community I'm familiar with"
Heres where I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. it sounds like you're saying that because you've been here longer than me, it's your sensibilities that I should be watching? It's your standards I need to meet, and if I don't you get to insult me?
"and then getting super riled up and mad when I confront him on it."
Now to be fair, I didn't get riled up until after you personally insulted me for the second / third time, and then mischaracterized what i was saying for like the 5th time and used that mischaracterisation as an excuse to insult me. I think I did fine work staying cool for some time.
"I would have said the same thing to anyone who made that joke, just so we're clear. It's not about you."
Glad to hear it. Now if you would do me the kindness of trying to understand what I am saying when I talk about things like how "I'm not willing to put infinite effort into making sure no-one in the world can think I'm an asshole" instead of what you seem to be repeatedly trying to say I'm saying "I'm just going to be an asshole to everyone because not being an asshole is too hard." because that seems to me that you have picked up an idea of what kind of person I am, and you're just filling in what I'm actually saying for whatever strawman cliche bollocks you expect some like the idea of me you have in your head of me to be saying. Sooner the better, because I'm also not going to put infinite effort into making sure somone who is determined to misunderstand me in the worst way really understands me.
no subject
I still really strongly disagree with you here and I definitely don't appreciate your concern trolling or whatever the "have some advice/you may want to get used to it" thing is.
"Me calling you a dick is not worse than you making a sexist joke"...I disagree.
Then we are never going to see eye-to-eye. And I'm going to continue to be upset at sexist jokes. You are so full of "it's just a jooooooke haha stop being so offended" and that's bullshit. And my remark about this being a community I'm familiar with and not liking this behavior, I should have explained more clearly: it's very specifically because sexist jokes aren't cool, and a guy coming in and making them and then getting upset that people don't like them sticks in my craw. And it really smacks of "haha dumb feminists can't take a joke" - no, that's not what you said, but it comes from the same logical and emotional place.
So sorry, if you say things that I think are really dickish or act like a dick, I will call you a dick. That's me being blunt and it's not categorically any different than you being blunt, and from my perspective, you were the first person to be rude when you made a sexist joke.
because that seems to me that you have picked up an idea of what kind of person I am
I don't give a fuck what "kind of person you are"; I know almost nothing about you; I care very specifically about you coming in here and occasionally acting like a dick. Maaaany people act differently online than in person and even if you were dickish in person it would have zero impact on my life because the chances that I will ever meet you are vanishingly small. All I know about you is how you behave on the one forum we're both on, and it's all I care about.
If your response to this boils down again to "well you were mean too" we will never ever agree because again: sexist jokes >>> calling someone a dick or any other mild insult. If you're just going to be unapologetic about that, and about stuff like justifying Trump's sexual assault remarks as elsewhere in this thread, we just won't get along. /shrug
no subject
Oh, and I wasn't concern trolling. I am legitimately unconcerned by what you say or do to other people, but in order to explain myself I am pointing out that the natural reaction to being repeatedly insulted is that people will snap back. Deal with it. Or don't, but it's what you have to look forward to when you call people names.
If I wanted to continue this, and actually I could live with that, I'd ask you why "it's just a jooooooke haha stop being so offended" is bullshit, I know we don't agree on that, when you yourself admit that you know I don't mean what I say, why would what I say matter? Like, it's the meaning that makes the thing, isn't it? Like if I just started babbling a bunch of random syllables right now, and there came out two random noises that sounded, when put together, like a slur, would that still be offensive? Words are noise, it's the meaning that matters.
Erm, if you'll notice, the part where I got upset, the ONE part of this whole thing where the guy got upset was not after you criticized me as "annoying" you with the stupid joke, it was after you had repeatedly insulted me, and tried again to twist my words to make me out to be worse than I am.
""haha dumb feminists can't take a joke" - no, that's not what you said"
No, you're right, it's not what I said. It doesn't look, sound or smell like what I said. Trying to tie what I did say - which is nothing like that - to that with "it comes from the same logical and emotional place" is bullshit, and again mischaracterizing, and also assuming you know better about my logical and emotional processes than I do. And assuming you can use that knowledge of my logical and emotional processes to tie me to a moronic statement, presumably so that you can continue to feel justified for the unreasonable treatment you are dishing out.
So sorry, if you say things that I think are really dickish or act like a dick, I will call you a dick. That's me being blunt and it's not categorically any different than you being blunt, and from my perspective, you were the first person to be rude when you made a sexist joke."
That's not you being blunt. That is you being insulting, you can tell that from the insult in your comments. Directed at me. for making a joke about the sexism I was already being accused of. By doing deliberate mockery of sexism. For example, In my joke, who is the joke directed at? Who was the butt of it the joke? Me, the person acting like a sexist moron - that you admit I am not really like. Who is the butt of you're comment? Me again.
"I don't give a fuck what "kind of person you are""
Well I do. I also care that people, when I explain myself to them, do not twist what I say to make me sound worse, and then use the fact that they have made me sound worse to justify insulting me.
"I know almost nothing about you"
And yet what you do think you know about me comes through spectacularly clearly. you see a joke you deem sexist where I deliberately say something that sounds sexist, that you know I don't actually mean, and you assume I must be a sexist, and that keeps coming through over and over again in how you twist the things I am actually saying.
Oh, I think it's fairly clear we won't get along. And my response to this is to PLEASE ask you to stop seeing the world as "People who are worse than me who I can be unpleasant to, People who are might not be worse than me but if I squint and twist I can make look worse than me so I can be unpleasant to, and Me and the people I like for now." It is super unpleasant.
Oh, and you read my comment on how trumps comments might not necessarily be about sexual assault, and you head comes out with obviously the only thing that could possibly be: Me justifying Trump's sexual assault remarks. No, certainly no twisting of the facts there. Nope nope nope.
I swear there really is no point in trying to make you think any differently about me or anything else, is there. No matter what is actually said, you... You might actually be incapable of believing there is a truth that is not already fixed in stone in your own head.
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
Well, it's a three day old post, what you still doing reading it if it's boring? You can jog on if you want. There's better thread up than this one.
no subject
no subject
*Snuggles into you*
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
But your kind always all the cops.
no subject
As for the rest...I give up. This is just getting amazingly tiresome. Sexist jokes are not ok. There is no way to justify or explain away Trump's remarks about sexual assault and if you do, you're putting giving a massive shitstain (Trump) the benefit of the doubt over the comfort of every woman you interact with. You make a sexist joke or try to justify those remarks, and your intent doesn't really matter any more: you're being a jerk. There just isn't much more to say and I'm not going to stop thinking that about those things.
I would have been ready to give you the benefit of the doubt about the smugness but I cannot deal with the sexism.
no subject
Yeah, it's not fun when someone misinterprets what you're saying, then uses that to paint you in an unfair way. And if I am misunderstanding what you are doing when you repeatedly twist me words into things I didn't say, or when you try to claim what I said is coming from the same logical and emotional place - like you know my logical and emotional processes - as the moronic statement your trying to tie to me, please accept my apologies, and perhaps you'd like to take another go at why you keep doing this? Because it seems to me that you don't seem super interested in what I say or mean, and more interested in fighting me for things I didn't say or mean. Willing to be proved wrong on this, but, well you see how it's difficult to imagine how you could go from "The time you spent trying to make sure no-one can call you an asshole could be better spent by doing just about anything else" to "There's no point in trying to be polite because I might upset someone anyway" without a bit of misinterpretation and assuming my world view, as well as ignoring then previous statements I made to clarify the point, right?
ETA: But you know what, you may be right. Perhaps I am inferring more intent than is warranted. You have my apologise for that.
"then literally extrapolate my ENTIRE WORLDVIEW"
I'm... I'm really not sure I did all that. I mean, your argument, seems to be that you can call me names because I did something worse, and given that worse is a subjective value, from that I extrapolate that you think if you judge something to be worse, you are justified in being unpleasant to them? Like I'm not sure I'm making any leaps between what you actually said and that conclusion.
"I made a remark because I thought you were being a jerk and hoped you would stop doing that"
Well, here's the problem I didn't think I was being a jerk, and I didn't see the fact that it "annoyed" or "wasn't appreciated" by someone as a good enough reason to do anything. Like, I don't appreciate tomatoes, I don't see that whoever put them in my salad needs to know or care.
"This conversation has actually really not been any fun at all"
I know what you mean, but I'm in it now, gotta see it through.
"DON'T ever tell me what or how I am thinking"
RIGHT back attcha. I mean, the fact that this is the hill you're choosing to fight on, after this entire thread... wew lad.
"literally telling me what is in my head which is super patronizing"
Isn't it just, tho. I'm glad you recognise that. Now if you would do me the kindness of taking that insight, and focusing it on your comments to me... I mean, all the way through, but if you want to take a look at the comment that my last comment was responding to...
"literally telling me what is in my head which is ... WAY more insulting than calling me a jerk AND way more insulting than me calling you a dick"
Ok, I'm starting to see how your hierarchy of "X is worse than Y so Y is ok for me to do stacks up. Just to help me complete the picture, is a "sexist" joke better or worse than telling someone what is in their head?
"Sexist jokes are not ok"
Well, Im not sure I agree. It depends on the intent, the message, the target, whether or not it's funny. I mean, I wouldn't wanna be so black and white about.
"There is no way to justify or explain away Trump's remarks about sexual assault"
You're assuming his comments were definitely about sexual assault, that's the base assumption I am challenging here. Sure they could be, but I'm nut sure that's the only reading of them. I'm not saying people are wrong to make either assumption, I'm saying people may not be defending sexual assault if they have a different interpretation to you. If someone doesn't see it that way, trying to guilt them into changing their viewpoint of shutting up or whatever by telling them that they are "giving a massive shitstain (Trump) the benefit of the doubt over the comfort of every woman you interact with".
"the comfort of every woman you interact with"
I thought women were not the borg? You can speak for every woman now? The comfort of "every" woman didn't see to badly assaulted when all those women voted for Trump. I admit I'm being facetious here but really, you can't make a blanket statement about "the comfort of every woman you interact with"
"You make a sexist joke or try to justify those remarks, and your intent doesn't really matter any more"
I think that's what they call a "Thought terminating cliche" isn't it? Intent ALWAYS matters. Always matters to me, anyway. It's not like if someone says a series of magic words it turns off your reasoning brain and activates your attack protocols. It shouldn't be anyway. Intent always matters. Understanding intent is - rather than, say inferring intent - is one of the most important things in any human relationship to my eyes.
"I would have been ready to give you the benefit of the doubt about the smugness but I cannot deal with the sexism."
And I would have been willing to discuss the possibility of sexism in what I was saying if you hadn't repeatedly attacked me for what I wasn't saying. I mean, for the record, I'm of the opinion that jokes about sexism can be ok, and you seem to be of the opinion that jokes about sexism are never ok, so this discussion wouldn't have solved anything, but I guess we'll never know.