fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #499 ]

[ SECRET POST #499 ]

⌈ Secret Post #499 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

__________________________________________________

09.

__________________________________________________

10.

__________________________________________________

11.

__________________________________________________

12.

__________________________________________________

13.

__________________________________________________

14.

__________________________________________________

15.

__________________________________________________

16.

__________________________________________________

17. [posted twice]

__________________________________________________

18. [posted twice]

__________________________________________________

19.

__________________________________________________

20.

__________________________________________________

21.

__________________________________________________

22.

__________________________________________________

23.

__________________________________________________

24.

__________________________________________________

25.

__________________________________________________

26.

__________________________________________________

27.

__________________________________________________

28.

__________________________________________________

29.

__________________________________________________

30.

__________________________________________________

31.

__________________________________________________

32.

__________________________________________________

33.

__________________________________________________

34.

__________________________________________________

35.

__________________________________________________

36.

__________________________________________________

37.

__________________________________________________

38.

__________________________________________________

39.

__________________________________________________

40. [repeat]

__________________________________________________

41.

__________________________________________________

42.

__________________________________________________

43.

__________________________________________________

44.

__________________________________________________

45.

__________________________________________________

46.

__________________________________________________

47.

__________________________________________________

48.

__________________________________________________

49.

__________________________________________________

50.

__________________________________________________

51.

__________________________________________________

52.

__________________________________________________

53.

__________________________________________________

54.

__________________________________________________

55.

__________________________________________________

56.

__________________________________________________

57.

__________________________________________________

58.

__________________________________________________

59.

__________________________________________________

60.

__________________________________________________

61.

__________________________________________________

62.

__________________________________________________

63.

__________________________________________________

64.

__________________________________________________

65.

__________________________________________________

66.

__________________________________________________

67.

__________________________________________________

68.

__________________________________________________

69.

__________________________________________________

70.

__________________________________________________

71.

__________________________________________________

72.

__________________________________________________

73.

__________________________________________________

74.

__________________________________________________

75.

__________________________________________________

76.

__________________________________________________

77.

__________________________________________________

78.

__________________________________________________

79.

__________________________________________________

80.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 18 pages, 445 secrets from Secret Submission Post #072.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

But simplify it doesn't go anything either. I can pick two different shounen in Jump like Kenshin and Eyeshield 21, if you look at the most simplified way, they both espouses the Jump motto that friendship is important, but they go through that in quite different ways. Hell, Death Note is like the anti-thesis of that and what happens if you go against it. Looking at the small details then the overall picture does make the product look different than before, pretty much like art in a museum.

Why I have a feeling if the girls are men, you wouldn't say the comment? Yes, Lal wants to take revenge against Millefiore for Colonnello's death, but she have priorities as well and she's very self-sufficient, especially for a person who's on the verge of dying from Millefiore's beams. Her battle with Ginger Bread pretty much show that she can pull her weight. But honestly, how come she's different from Ryohei, who wants revenge for his master just as bad?
Chrome pretty much shown that she can fight without Mukuro controlling her with her fight with Glo Xinia and now doesn't need Mukuro to support her organs anymore. Yeah, Mukuro helped distract Glo Xinia from killing Chrome, that's no different when the guys help out each other, but it was Chrome's desire to see the Kokuyou Gang again that awoken her latent illusionist powers against an enemy that TYL!Mukuro had a hard time fighting even.
Bianchi's shown to be pretty self-sufficient back in the Kokuyou Arc and helping out Gokudera in his training in the Future Arc. I think the fact that she's horrible in the kitchen is a send up to the trope of women being great at cooking. Yeah, she's extremely devoted to Reborn, but does that make her any different than her own lil' bro, who is extremely loyal to Tsuna? There's nothing wrong with her being in love with Reborn as long as she could pull her own weight, she IS a hitwoman after all.
Remember, Tsuna and his family are often touted as different than other mafia families. The mafia in a sense is evil in itself, so Tsuna's opponents wanting to off him (or in Mukuro's case, be him) for power make sense in that his adversaries are after the same thing. Hell, this is one component that I'm happy that Amano kept in from the true life of the mafia. Even upright families like the Cavallone Familgia is not above getting their hands dirty even with a boss like Dino. But at least the villains were colorful to say the least.

I meant the Narutaru manga too. I mean, is a scene with grade school girls molesting another one with a test tube, necessary? I mean, Bokurano had its shock moments but it doesn't go extreme as Narutaru did.

(That's why is a culturally significant movie too! But that happens all the time when you see a film and don't think of it as special when later works copy the hell out of the trope.)

I agree that Yamamoto is troubled, but I feel as Gokudera struggles with trust, Yamamoto struggles with self-worth. The fact he was willing to kill himself because he MIGHT never play ball again, tells you he doesn't hold himself in high regard at all. I think it would be interesting of why he chose the mafia instead something pursuing his dream again. Also, I'm very curious of his father, Tsuyoshi's past and why it seems like Yamamoto's mother isn't around (some predict she died, but it's odd she never shown up once). As for Hibari, I think fighting Reborn was pretty much he join the Vongola and he like the power it brings (and that he might grown tsundere towards the Guardians). But I like the wild theory that he's some guardian spirit of the town. LOL. But I wouldn't be surprised if he came from a yakuza family or very traditional home. I hope Amano does some backstory on Hibari soon, either in novel form or the manga.

*sighs* clearly no matter what we say to each other we're never going to see completely eye to eye haha.

Would I not complain if the females were men? Err... I don't like male characters to be that... frankly... they'd be far too whimpy for my taste. Chrome hasn't fought since the end of her battles (which was still before Mukuro's supposed death) and Mukuro is still a far superior fighter. She is still very shy and passive to an extraordinary degree. I feel that I don't need the women to be manly women but I'd like to see something more than what we are presented with than usually.

Bianchi reminds me of the stereotyped European woman who is very sexualized and domineering. Her cooking capabilities steamed as a talent. Its only harmful and bad because its poisonous but I believe she is fully aware of that. Also MM was a VERY indispensable character compared to the two Yamamoto and Gokudera fought. Plus the marriage fiasco if anything completely nullifies anything that could express her as strong. How easily she is duped due to her ill-faith in Reborn is ridiculous. Yes it's comical, but it does send a message.

Lal has the underlying tsundere factor which I bring up again because it is known as a trait to undermine a girl who seems tough (tough on the outside but soft on the inside is a very dominated trait. I'm not saying its a bad thing, I'm just saying that the way it is formated in said culture it is very much a negative). Ryohei has no abounding tsundere factor whatsoever so that can't be qualified for a comparison. The only person who could have potentially expressed it is Hibari but I'd probably be very disappointed in his character if that was the kind he turned out to be (of course the future arc clearly says otherwise). A good example of a solid Lal to me is a Lady Kika type. Same exact situation with a loved one dying, both came out as strong women, but Kika prevails through a calm strength which I like. She's actually more like a warm-hearted Hibari. (In terms of that after losing everything, she built up a pirate crew with an iron fist)

Yes I do agree with the fact that Gokudera's emotions could be essentially compared to the male equivalent of Haru. The only thing that makes his actions for me logical is because of the loss of his family, I see Gokudera's relationship with Tsuna to be a bit of a father-son one. Due to the lack of a good father, Tsuna became the pinnacle of Gokudera's affection. In this essence he was given logic behind his actions and therefore made his growth as a character seem to take a unique form. I do applaud Amano on how rounded Gokudera has become as a character, while when it comes to the others I can't always say the same.

I love characters with weaknesses, I just wish most of them weren't prevalent stereotypes... or things that society still deals with as a problem. It is prominent as a problem through many video games and television, comics, etc so I'm not going to say reborn is the worst, because it clearly isn't, but it isn't the best. The only thing that has shown a prominent step forward in gaming at least is Suikoden(I mean not all their characters, but a pretty strong number). So what can I say, I guess I'm looking for some female characters that are on equal terms with some of the ones in the games.

I'm also not a big fan of this whole mythical mafia. Everyone in the mafia reminds me of everyone in Code Geass in the government. For the most part people aren't like in both appearance and nature. It is far too characterized for my taste.

No, but I think you're putting a higher standard for the girls than the boys.

I disagree strongly that Chrome is shy or passive. Quiet and a bit standoffish? Yes. Shy? No. Remember, this is a person who walked up to a prefect stranger who she only have secondary information from a former enemy and kissed him on the cheek and ask if she can call him "Boss" within minutes of meeting him. And she said did this on her own will. In Japan, that's a pretty brazen thing to do. I don't know where you get passive from, but she agreed to let Mukuro possess her because it was a mutual beneficial thing: Mukuro needed an able body, Chrome needed Mukuro's illusions to keep her alive. Besides, if you reread the Glo/Chrome fight, those illusions were Chrome's because Mukuro coached her to tap into her latent illusionist powers (remember, he's using Leo's body at the moment and I think that he can't use his offensive illusion powers unless he's in an able body, but not remotely). Unless you're talking about how Ken and Chigusa treat her, she probably let him treat her that way because they're still upset about Mukuro, not because she was afraid of them or anything. Chrome doesn't act like a typical Japanese girl, she was an odd one and that's why her parents rejected her. Even the mangaka makes a point in the fanbook on how much inner strength that Chrome has.

I don't know, yeah Bianchi has the pushiness stereotyped of Western women, but she's also a typical young woman in certain behaviors. I don't thing the weeding thing invalidated her character as it's natural to want to marry that person you love. Plus I don't think you take in account how she continues to do her own thing for the Vongola Familgia AFTER Reborn's death. I don't think her love for Reborn is entirely blind as more that's why she loves Reborn.

And I disagree that Lal is a tsundere character, Gokudera and maybe Hibari are tsundere characters, not Lal. It's understandable why she was hard on Tsuna and Gokudera because they don't need to be coddled in such a situation they're in, not to protect herself emotionally (which tsunderes do). And note that this isn't her first time training since she trained Colonnello back in that special army unit before they became Arcobaleno, so her toughness on them prolly came from that. Plus, she doubted in Tsuna's current potential because she didn't know him very well. It was until Tsuna passed the Vongola Don test, she seen it. She seems to be more like a milder female version of Reborn than anything. A strong woman might not be a common trait in modern shounen, but it's not like strong women don't exist in shounen. And again, I can't help to think that because she's a woman that you called her a tsundere. And if you're going to use her relationship to Colonnello, I think she felt guilt that he became an Arcobalenco and disappointment that she was a failed one. But I also think she only saw him as a student until after that fact.

And I also strongly disagree that Gokudera sees Tsuna as a father figure, he already has Shamal and the Ninth for that (and the fact he shares Shamal's hairstyle denotes his influence in Gokudera's life). To Gokudera, Tsuna is everything to him and the first and only person he let past all the emotional barriers he had. So, of course he wants approval from Tsuna and do right by him. And now, he tries to figure out to treat Tsuna like a friend and less of a revered boss and trust others so his attention won't be a burden to Tsuna. I agree that Gokudera is the most complex character in the series, but I don't think most of the major cast is one-note characters, they do show other sides of their personalities time to time. While I don't think Reborn has the best characters ever, but it's best characterization of SJ during its run except for Eyeshield 21, Death Note and one equal footing with One Piece.

Meh, I like the Magical Mystery Mafia thing, I came in Reborn for the strange twists that manga in general provide and they're fulfilling that for me.

I think we need to stop this because frankly, this is going to be a circle of a debate and I'm tired of the cross-judgments you keep passing as if I have a double standard towards women or men (which yes, it does exist to a certain degree if you look at how culture treats both genders so drastically, but I'm not harder on female characters as I am equally so on the males, but there are differences in what I am critical of.) But... blah blah blah, etc etc...

This essentially will break down to the fact that we both see differently and there are so many words to express fully our points of view. Nothing you have said really has made me change my state of mine and I'm sure vice versa as you seem as equally stubborn in your position as I. I thank you for your perspective and admire your passion about the series to be so adamantly defensive.

I agree we should stop, but I still think that you are harsher on the girls, especially when you interpreted Chrome and shy and passive and Lal as a tsundere when they're not and that can be proved by simple reading the canon manga and official fanbook (on Chrome's personality and view on other people, in that she's not interested in people other than the Kokuyou Gang and Tsuna). I feel you wouldn't make the same statements if they were male.

I admit I like debating more than anything and come from a family who like to debate a lot. It was a pleasure.

Haha and yet once again you're judging my character inaccurately. I already claimed that Gokudera and Hibari are possible tsundere candidates... and if you see as to how Reborn reacted towards Lal, the one thing he said is that she's very easy to read. We can see that as a harsh trainer it was out of love which can quality as a Tsundere type as well (unless this is an error in how I read Tsundere) where Tsundere is categorized as "good-willed, but its attitude and actions often contradict its nature" which could equally qualify Reborn as well. Then again he is also more well thought-out in his actions. Lal tries to hold control of the situation but in times becomes a bit of a cop-out. Yes she is trying but the way she is presented is as weaker. Okay, alternatively, Chrome is more uncertain than necessarily shy and passive. She often shows a hesitancy in her nature. Her stature and body language gives off an entirely different persona than maybe that kiss would. But even categorizing Mukuro with 'sama' shows her submissive nature. Also if you notice, she didn't care to live or die but rather allowed Mukuro to do whatever he wishes which in turn did grant her life. I didn't say she was incapable, but she gives herself a submissive position in both of the context of Mukuro and others around her. I do believe that it shows that she is gaining strength by using her ring to bring out her own developing abilities.

Also you're losing the point that they're characters which represent a social norm. If the prevailing social norm is constructed in said media it tends to permeate through society through a social impact. Therefore when females are already seen, particularly in a society such as Japan, as weak and incapable and something illustrates that, it becomes a larger problem. But I don't ask for unrealistic characters I just ask for maybe a female character I could relate to in any possible way.

There... I go again. =X

I think you're over-stretching the 'tsundere' term though. Tsunderes tend to act that way to emotionally protect themselves, not to the benefit of the people they like or respect. Like Gokudera's tsundere actions against Yamamoto. Sure, I think Gokudera respects Yamamoto in some level, but he can get really nasty with him because of his feelings of inferiority. The fact that Reborn pointed out that Lal is open and clear with her emotions is basically an anti-thesis for a tsundere, because a tsundere will not be emotionally honest with themselves and hide them with antagonistic actions until a long while after. And Reborn isn't no tsundere either, he's a sadist, through and through, but he does care for Tsuna.

I think Chrome's defensive stature is more to protect the trident, which is important for her not to let go and that it's huge for her small size so she looks like that. How she interacts with Ken, Chigusa and Tsuna doesn't show she's always uncertain, although I admit she looked a little worried that Tsuna wouldn't accept her as the Mist Guardian. To be honest, Chrome's loyalty to Mukuro is the same as Gokudera's loyalty to Tsuna. During her backstory in the Mist Guardian battle, she had resigned herself to die because there was nothing there for her to live for. Then suddenly Mukuro appears and told her they were the same and that he needed her was prolly a first for Chrome, who seemed to be a loner until that point. Like Gokudera to Tsuna, Chrome wants to pay back Mukuro for the new lease on life so she addresses him respectfully like Chigusa does. She is no different from Ken and Chigusa in that regard with Mukuro. Yes, she's submissive to him, but not cause he's a guy and she's a girl, she's submissive to him because the guy was a savior to her, just like to Ken and Chigusa and they would all die for Mukuro. And she's not submissive to Ken or Chigusa either since she address them by their first names, IIRC. She knows that how they feel about her so she keeps her distance (as shown in the Cloud Guardian battle when they were sitting on the hill).

I'm very well aware of the sexiest against girls in manga, in Japan, and pretty much every other medium around the world, but I don't think very instance that a girl is submissive (although it's more appropriate to to say subordinate) to a guy is necessarily so because of their sex. Or a tough chick who shows her emotions on her sleeves is a tsundere. That's all.

Also I forgot to add, but you realize both your comment about Hibari and Yamamoto are based off of speculation? I'm not saying a guessing game isn't good but it is a little nicer to understand the encompassing psyche. Otherwise the characters will remain as weak or as strong as whoever dictates it.

Yamamoto's self-worth isn't that much of a speculation. It was true that he had low self-worth when he first became friends with Tsuna because he believed that baseball was all he had and was going to kill himself over the fact he wouldn't play anymore. Personally, I don't think he's gained self-worth, just transfered to it somewhere. Where? I'm not sure. Amano needs to tap into that.

I'm basing Hibari's actions on the kind of person Hibari is. Hibari is a person in search for worthy opponents and power if his control of Namimori says anything. What better place is in the Mafia? I said I wouldn't be surprised if Hibari actually came from an influential family since it seems that no one stops him from doing what he wants ever, although it would be a neat twist if he came from a normal home. LOL.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #499 ]

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44

Re: 11, 16, 19, 39, 44