[ SECRET POST #501 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #501 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 266 secrets from Secret Submission Post #072.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - seizure inducing ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

20, 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

20. ... People do that? There is a reason I will never watch this show.

67. Oh, please.

Osamu Tezuka/Berserk superior to CLAMP. It's not that I think those aren't good art (well, maybe something there...), or that CLAMP couldn't be considered bad; it's just... 'MY MODERNIST/SEXIST VIEW IS ABSOLUTE!'

I don't want to think what you think of shoujo. We now the comics for girls by girls are bad.

Hello there, fanboy.

Re: 67

[(Anonymous)]

get the fuck out of my gender

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

... Why? I'm pretty fine there.

67

[(Anonymous)]

...what part of the secret is sexist or even dissing shoujo, for that matter?

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

See, there is this believe in shonen/seinen/fanboy's (or mainstream) circles than nothing can be 'better' than Ozamu Tezuka, and Berserk is the best thing ever because 'it's SO GAR and MANLY, and DEEP.'

*sighs* It's not that it doesn't permeates all of our culture. Compare those two comics with any shoujo and tell why you think it will be better. And don't tell me it's for the 'panels' and the 'clarity.' Why didn't they put Emma there? The other manga? I don't know it, but I can tell it's not a shoujo, or even a josei.

Peet peeve of mine maybe. Because it's not the first time I have heard this exact same claim about what is good or bad.

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

Compare those two comics with any shoujo and tell why you think it will be better

*they will be better.

Re: 67

[(Anonymous)]

Nowhere does the secret say "shounen/seinen is SUPERIOR to shoujo here's why." The secret isn't about shoujo, seinen, or whatever, it's about what does and doesn't make good art.

I think you're jumping to one too many conclusions.

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

... It doesn't have to say it, it just has to imply it. Again, this isn't a unpopular opinion out there.

It's pretty much what I read into it, because I know our pretty western culture.

But, hey, if you aren't comfortable with that, fine by me. Yeah, it doesn't explicitly said it.

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

See, it's not you can like Berserk better than CLAMP. You can, and you can think it's better. But when you jump and say 'THIS IS THE TRUE SUPERIOR GOOD ART' and 'MOST OF THE FANDOM WOULDN'T KNOW IT.' Well...

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

... Wait, the other one was Hayao Miyazaki's? My case is rested.

Re: 67

[rmarques.livejournal.com]

How is Miyazaki sexist? That guy has girls saving the guy's butts more times than anyone would care to count. He himself is a fierce critic of the way women are portrayed in many recent shows (especially moe shows).

Re: 67

[(Anonymous)]

No, sorry, that wasn't what I meant to say. Tezuka and Miyazaki are the ones who are always by men used to illustrate that 'true art' is the one directed towards a male audience. I'm really not much familiar with Miyazaki's work except for a few movies.

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

Damn, me again.

Re: 67

[rmarques.livejournal.com]

... And those are two piss poor examples. Miyazaki's movies are family movies, they have no specific target audience, except perhaps, children/teenagers.

As for Tezuka, the man is the father of manga, he did both shounen and shoujo stuff (in fact, he even did a BL manga once, if I remember right).

So, yeah, if people use those two as examples of stuff directed at males being superior than stuff directed at females, than they don't know what they're really talking about.

Re: 67

[kuromitsu.livejournal.com]

I also have this pet peeve, but I didn't notice anything sexist about that secret. The OP even said s/he wasn't trying to pick on CLAMP, only used their art to illustrate that simple and clear > pretty but utterly confusing, and I actually tend to agree with that. The OP's examples of "good art" kind of confuse me, though, because Berserk and Miyazaki? Subjective notions of "good" and "bad" aside, they're way too busy and confusing as hell.

[Disclaimer: I don't even like Tezuka *is uncultured barbarian* and Berserk is one of the few manga that I loathe.]

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's not that it's openly sexist. It just reinforces the concept that true good art is always something done by respectable male-mangaka for a target male-audience; and centers itself in fights/action oriented plots. Hence the OP claim that 'good art' is about the clarity of the fights/etc., ignoring that shoujo/josei panels are made in other way for specific purposes.

Re: 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

OH! I loathe Berserk too. And that's is a relly unpopular opinion. XD

Re: 20

[buggedboy.livejournal.com]

(custardpringle on an RP journal, sorry)

20. Don't miss the show entirely because of that D: There are plenty of shows and books I love to death whose fandoms I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. (Including Doctor Who.) At least give the show a shot, if not most of its fans?

Re: 20

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

20. Maybe some day, thanks. ^^ I have heard some things that made me uncomfortable (like Martha's treatment), but maybe it's mostly its fandom. Thank you for the rec!

Re: 20, 67

[(Anonymous)]

...are you retarded or something?

Re: 20, 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

Why? Because I don't have the same 'artistic' standard than you?

Sweetheart, look at that secret and tell me what you see there. Two samples pages of what the OP considers 'good art' that are of seinen/shonen, have very simple and neatly defined panels, and backgrounds which purpose is to show the action going on or describe the surroundings. Pretty much the characteristics of conventional western comic; which is original target audience is, of course, male. And then you have Berserk how 'good art,' but that's another matter (male audience too, no question).

But then this person complains how CLAMP is only about 'pretty characters' and that isn't good art. I will tell you something, if you show me a page of Clover or XXXholic by CLAMP comparing them to Berserk or an Ozamu Tezuka's work, and tell me the latter is 'good art' and the former isn't because that's isn't how action is supposed to be depicted? I will laugh at your face.

Clover or XXholic aren't action oriented manga. Their panels aren't supposed to show fights as the most important thing; they use negative space and backgrounds to convey characters feelings and emotions, and the way the panels are distributed is to accentuate the importance or impact of the experiences. And you know who are supposed to be the target audience here.

Because manga (or non-western comic) is such a varied genre, you can't pretend to put all these works in the same bag and try to measure by shonen/action-western comic standards. Well, you can, but I will still find it pretty ridiculous.

I prefer shoujo, or a seinen like XXXholic to Berserk any day, and I prefer how they visually convey the things that interest me. But if you prefer shonen, or an Ozamu Tezuka's work? It's not my problem, I won't tell you it's worse because it's not of my preference.

Re: 20, 67

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, now I note the trolling thing. I blame it to the lack of sleep. Pfft, anyway, I'm over now.

Re: 20, 67

[la-vie-noire.livejournal.com]

That was me.

Re: 20, 67

[noni-moon.livejournal.com]

FUCKING WORD! you sumed up everything I wanted to say ^^

Re: 20, 67

[noni-moon.livejournal.com]

I should ask you the same quistion Anon =) are YOU retarded? wait, no need to anwser that.