[ SECRET POST #3828 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #3828 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 31 secrets from Secret Submission Post #548.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I actually know the poster on tumblr, she's explained it's meaning several times. As have a few other people. So i know what's it about.

As for calling characters bae or son, as far as I've gathered it's just uncomfortable for some people when white people claim ownership of black people. I'm white myself so I don't have direct impact with racism, I just listen to what non-whites say about it.

[(Anonymous)]

It isn't "claiming ownership of black people". It's treating black characters the same as any other race. It can't be equated to slavery, and even if it could then Arab people and other blacks would have to be included in that as well (why does everyone "forget" that the African slave trade was vast and had many, many destinations? That's just denying history and acting as though real victims didn't exist).

It just rubs me the wrong way to see people demanding double standards, ignoring history and practical usage to do so.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT but it's possessive

It's not the same as claiming literal ownership, and it may not be bad that it's possessive, but it is an extremely possessive way of talking

[(Anonymous)]

It still can't in any logical sense be equated to slavery. At all.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree that it can't be equated to slavery. I don't think that anon who said "claim ownership of black people" was even equating it to slavery. What the argument from the actual letter said is that "The language of anti-black racism is often couched in terms of infantilization and ownership" which I think is true.

[(Anonymous)]

Even so when people apply the same terms equally to characters of all races, this is just normalizing the idea of fans loving black characters. There's no reason to use entirely different language based on race.

[(Anonymous)]

I actually know the poster on tumblr, she's explained it's meaning several times. As have a few other people. So i know what's it about.

Suuuuuuuuuuure. Do enlighten us.

[(Anonymous)]

That poster and the 'few other people' that you mentioned need to deal with their own shit and stop making it fandom's responsibility.

'Bae.' Really now.

[(Anonymous)]

if the post didn't use the specific word 'bae' at any point, how differently would you feel about it

You asked. Here is your TL;DR response.

[(Anonymous)]

SA

If the letter ACTUALLY stated what it was that some of the other Anons are saying it's saying, I sincerely doubt anyone here would have a problem with that. But it doesn't. It's basically saying that the way people are fanning Every. Other. Character in fandom would be terrible, bad, and wrong when applied to this specific movie. I ABSOLUTELY understand how a thing can be so precious to someone that they don't want to see people interact with it in the typical mode(s). The problem with this letter is that writer expects this to change for them. If this is a problem for them, if this movie is too sacred to them for the typical tumblr babytalk nonsense, or for slash, or even RPS, or for people to screech MY PRECIOUS SON*, I suggest they practice the appropriate self-care and block people, or take a break from tumblr, rather than expect fandom to change the entire way they interact with a particular film on their behalf.

I feel that a heads up about engaging with the film in a racist manner, or showing concern that this will happen is legit. I share that anxiety. I also feel what the letter writer is doing is about a few hundred steps beyond that and they're coaching the language of [sacred] in the language of anti-racism because that is a good way to get people in that particular sphere of social media to do what they want. Does that make sense to you?

I personally love the idea of normalized interaction with black heroes, black characters, and the idea of breaking racial barriers in identifying with characters, as opposed to all of us having to do the same in the direction of cis white male characters ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I will take that, warts and all, over any sort of careful special kid glove treatment. That's not equality. That IS infantilism. That's telling me we're suddenly too fragile to handle equality. That's way more insulting than hearing a white girl calling T'Challa precious (my issues with the way fandom expresses itself have been consistant across the board from the beginning, but that ship has sailed WAY too long ago to draw the line right here because reasons).

*And please do not tell me that this is somehow the same thing as the witheringly condescending 'son' from racists to black men, because they I will assume that this thing called context is too fucking difficult for you to comprehend or you're completely irrational and it's pointless for this conversation to continue.

Re: You asked. Here is your TL;DR response.

[(Anonymous)]

I feel that a heads up about engaging with the film in a racist manner, or showing concern that this will happen is legit. I share that anxiety. I also feel what the letter writer is doing is about a few hundred steps beyond that and they're coaching the language of [sacred] in the language of anti-racism because that is a good way to get people in that particular sphere of social media to do what they want. Does that make sense to you?

Sure, it makes sense. I just really don't think the letter is saying that. Or, if it is saying that, it's secondary - maybe the letter strays into that territory on occasion, but most of it is more reasonable and in line with the kind of genuine anxiety you reference.

And I think the general reaction to it at least on here basically takes the parts where it goes too far, amplifies those 1000x, and then acts like that's representative of the letter as a whole and Tumblr and fandom and the whole dang universe, and that's no good either.

Re: You asked. Here is your TL;DR response.

[(Anonymous)]

I can express my anxiety about a thing without shooting off my mouth telling people how they can and can't engage with a film? I recognize I don't have control over that? They may have made a mistake, but it's out there now and for good or ill, people are going to react to it. And it might not be representative of all or even most of Tumblr's userbase is thinking, but this kind of conflict keeps happening over and over again because that's where fandom is right now, and activism and purity politics is a thing right now, and fewer people are willing to put their happy fandom time at risk by pushing back; I don't necessarily blame them. It could be happening on DW, it would've been happening on LJ if we were all still there.

So I'm thinking and I'm not sure where my lines are drawn, but they're definitely well before the kind of statements that went into the letter because this behavior doesn't scan as anything resembling reasonable to me. That was a display of acting out by someone that is anticipating a hard time, that is kinda sensitized to this stuff, and has chosen to throw shit first. I am sympathetic to the feeling and experiences that likely lay behind it, I get it, but I still won't co-sign the action, it's still not right to me.

And I think the general reaction to it at least on here basically takes the parts where it goes too far, amplifies those 1000x, and then acts like that's representative of the letter as a whole and Tumblr and fandom and the whole dang universe, and that's no good either.

I don't think we're too far off of agreement on that one--that was basically what pissed me about it to begin with--the assumption that this was representative on the part of the OP, the letter writer, AND a good part of the rest of FS, when I strongly disagreed with it. I think it might be a good jumping off place for someone to express the idea in a manner that isn't so completely warped by anxiety over-the-top and controlling, though.

This conversation though, this was reasonable. I know I've babbled on for a while. Thanks for hearing me out, Anon.

[(Anonymous)]

So if a person calls a white or asian character 'bae' or 'son/daughter' it does not imply ownership?

How many people alive today were actually slaves or had parents or grandparents that were? Probably none.

I'm not denying that slavery doesn't still exist in the world, but it is not just black people. Just because every American public school United States history class teaches about slavery in the U.S people think that is the only time slavery existed.

[(Anonymous)]

How many people alive today were actually slaves or had parents or grandparents that were? Probably none.

Because it has been over 150 years since abolition, no, people living today have no living connection to the enslaved generation. Former slaves were interviewed in the 1930s about their experiences, and they were all 80-100 years old. Few grandparents of today are likely to remember their great-grandparents who were the last of the freed slaves.

Because of slavery, it is difficult to do detailed genealogical research into the families of the modern African-American population. But most African-Americans have some degree of heritage linking back to them, even spread out after the Great Migration. If you watch episodes of shows like Finding Your Roots and Who Do You Think You Are, when they speak with African-American celebs it inevitably comes up.