fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #3888 ]

When I was 14 I had a few fantasies about some of my hotter teachers. Pretty sure that doesn't make me any variety of pedo. 'Specially given how, when one of my teachers (not one I fantasised about, thank god) got arrested for fucking a student, I was disgusted down to my bones. How about that! :D
So no, no concern here.

Honestly the AYRT just wants people to feel bad for fantasizing about what they don't approve of because they find it wrong.

DA

This. They're either a "kink-critical" radical feminist, or they're a fundie xtian.

I'm the OP, and I really didn't think I'd have to explain this to anyone, but here we go: it's not a hebephilic fantasy if you're a kid fantasizing about having sex with an adult. Hebephilia is the sexual preference, of an adult, for adolescent children.

If your teacher had fantasized about you, that would have been a hebephilic fantasy. It doesn't go both ways.

What if I'm an adult fantasizing I'm a kid having sex with an adult?

In my opinion, this is a particularly gray area, and it strongly depends on the particularities.

In the case where someone writes a smut fic in which an underage person has sex with an adult, the main problem, IMO, is that their perspective is not the audience's perspective. Maybe it's hot to the writer because they're imagining having their first sexual encounter with an idealized yet inappropriate older figure. This doesn't seem weird or unhealthy to me, any more than imagining how our high school experience could have been if life were more like fiction. Or maybe they're a CSA who's imagining themselves back in the shoes of the victim, but this time recontextualizing the situation in a way that helps them somehow. I have no opinion on that.

But when someone posts that fantasy publicly, in the form of a story that's about other, publicly shared characters, what that fantasy is for them doesn't go with it. The fantasy becomes something far more objective. And objectively, they've now posted a story that's about an adult having sex with a kid.

Huh. This is a really interesting distinction. The person may have written the fic imagining themselves in the victim's role. But that's not what it is objectively, outside of their own mind. Objectively, it's just a rapist raping their victim and the text signaling us that it's supposed to be hot.

I would definitely respond differently to someone posting their personal rape fantasy with a made up name for the self-insert character, and an oc of their own invention as the rapist. But when it's a fic featuring beloved characters, it's just like, ok, why the fuck have you made character A a pedo rapist!? And why the fuck have you made character B their bloody victim!? Why would you DO that, and why in hell are you writing about it as thought it were hot?

God, so much this. THANK YOU.

Because we like angst? Because we enjoy intensity? Because fictional eroticism can be channeled through high-pressure tropes? Because hurt/comfort is often mixed in with such reimaginings, and h/c is an ancient trope comprised of care and enforced intimacy? Because pain and swooning and helplessness and vulnerability have parallels in erotic experience and sensation? Because danger is thrilling? Because the dark side of sexuality can be played with and pushed to its limits in a completely fictional framework and absolutely nobody gets harmed?

The puritanism around sexual fantasy and the desire to judge and shame real people in defense of nonreal characters horrifies me. Unless you can show me the author/artist in question committing a concrete criminal act, you are unjustly accusing and persecuting a member of your own community who has done absolutely nothing wrong. They've made you uncomfortable? Don't read their work. You're trying to create a repressive and unwelcoming atmosphere that will silence or drive out people who are translating their erotic urges in creative, extreme, ridiculous, and playful ways. Point out the harm to me. Show me someone who's been damaged by it - and it better not be a sex-repulsed Tumblrite wailing about having to share the internet with adults.

I don't want the thought police in fandom. I don't want my fellow fans thinking they have the right to control my storytelling. What the fuck makes you think fandom is the place with moral influence on society? If you're so damned concerned, take your morality crusade to the male-dominated porn industry where actual human beings are often exploited. And stop wading into a female-majority set of communities where female-majority sexual exploration and freedom to discuss and depict sexual taboos is one of the strongest expressions of creativity and strongest common bonds we've got. You want to come in here and tell us we're the problem? That we've gone too far? That our fiction endangers real women and children? Come the fuck on, people.

The current pedophilia obsession in fandom is bizarre, and a lot of it is fueled by sexually unschooled and fearful teenagers who want the rest of the world to have smoll, innocent, fluffy, nonsexual sex. But sexual roots go deep and sexual associations exist on a spectrum - some of which is disturbing, sure. The idea that sexual urges are pure is just - well, weirdly patriarchal and religious, actually.

But in this whole discussion, you haven't a shred of evidence for your self-righteous condemnation. You only have your feelings. Well, to me your feelings are unsophisticated and narrow-minded and unsupported by any documentation whatsoever. And I am fucking tired of the misuse of the term pedophilia as a modern scarlet letter to mark people - real people - for doxxing and verbal abuse.

Your comment is too extensive to address all of your points, but I'll address some.

You're trying to create a repressive and unwelcoming atmosphere

No, I'm really not. I'm just not going to tell you I think your "kink" is okay, and if you'd STOP asking me for that validation, you could maybe get on with your life. I don't want to know you in any way, I'm not going to praise your fic, and I might post to my own personal space about how much I dislike and am disturbed by underage noncon fanfic. That is all. If you think I'm doing something wrong, you're the one who is trying to be repressive and who is incapable of respecting my right to exist within fandom. What do you want? To force me to express an opinion I don't hold? To force me to associate with you? To forbid me from voicing my opinions in my own personal space? Can you not see how messed up that is?

I don't want the thought police in fandom. I don't want my fellow fans thinking they have the right to control my storytelling.

I don't want the thought police in fandom either. People can think what they want, and they can write what they want. But as far as I'm concerned, pedophilic fanfic and fanart shouldn't be permitted on major public archives.

stop wading into a female-majority set of communities where female-majority sexual exploration and freedom to discuss and depict sexual taboos

The taboos I feel positively about seeing sexually explored are the taboos that, irl, should not be taboos, or should be less taboo than they are (and there are many). Holding those taboos up with taboos that should never, ever become less taboo irl and arguing for them as though they were the same seems illogical and potentially damaging to me.

The idea that sexual urges are pure is just - well, weirdly patriarchal and religious, actually.

I do not believe sexual urges are any more or less pure than anything else about human beings. Nor have I implied otherwise anywhere in my previous comments. Also, I'm female, a lifelong feminist, and an atheist. So, I mean, think what you want but you couldn't be more off the mark in this case.

you haven't a shred of evidence for your self-righteous condemnation.

A) there is nothing self-rightous about my comments. They are merely direct in stating my viewpoints and opinions. B) I have not condemned anyone, and your belief that stating "I don't support X" equals condemnation makes me wonder at your evident sense of persecution. I have also not accused anyone of pedophilia or being a pedophile anywhere in this thread. You seem to be projecting your encounters with others very heavily onto my comments.

As for what harm posting these fantasies to internet communities does, I believe I've already said. Fiction influences reality. You put something toxic out there, it stays out there. You put it on a website beside other fics that don't feature toxic taboos, it becomes normalized. I do not want the idea of rape as something hot to become normalized, any more than it already is in our society.

I might post to my own personal space about how much I dislike and am disturbed by underage noncon fanfic. That is all.

But as far as I'm concerned, pedophilic fanfic and fanart shouldn't be permitted on major public archives.

Right there you've stepped outside your own private sphere. In my experience, when people say "this shouldn't be allowed" it means they're working to enforce that particular boundary and arbitrate that division of right and wrong, and I can't agree with the boundaries being set here. I much prefer a fandom that embraces and inquires and makes room for, rather than one that's suspicious and witch-hunting and spreading unfounded assumptions about the moral character of fellow fans because someone decided their stories or fantasies were "toxic."

You say I'm projecting based on what I've encountered elsewhere. What I've encountered elsewhere is the prevalence of the term "pedophile" as a buzzword and a red flag among people who seized upon it as a way of wielding power in fandom. Its popularity and the zest with which it's been adopted as the rallying cry in circumstances where no pedophilia exists concerns me because it does nothing to protect children at risk and it spreads hatred. This isn't a statement that pedophilia doesn't exist in the real world. It's an observation that attacking people for fictional depictions of a whole range of narrative behaviors and character types by throwing the word "pedophile" at them is a vicious misuse of a very powerful accusation, and it's demonstrably attached to shipping wars. The fact that you've hoisted that flag here means you're inevitably going to be associated with the already existing crusade. You may not personally doxx. You may not leave frothing messages calling people all manner of names and telling them to kill themselves. But you're entering into the spirit of the latest fad in fandom, one that has already driven people out and terrified them into taking their fanworks down - this is where claims of pedophilia have led. And in the name of what? Fictional ships.

It's way past my bedtime, so I'm going to bow out now. You've tried to insist on keeping the conversation to only what's been strictly said in this thread. However, the very notion that pedophilia has a widespread influence within fandom is one that originates outside this comm, in a, yes, very 'toxic' part of fandom. You've brought that toxicity with you by bringing the terminology here, so of course experience of and references to what has already happened around the "pedophilia discourse" is going enter the discussion.

I think we represent two different spirits of fandom, and we'll never see eye to eye. I'm glad I've had over a decade to enjoy fandom before this latest attempt to purge it of undesirable elements came along. It's just depressing to watch it trivialize a real issue and drive wedges between generations and different cultures within fandom.

In my experience, when people say "this shouldn't be allowed" it means they're working to enforce that particular boundary

I am not, but if fandom held a vote on the matter, I know which way I'd vote. So okay, I suppose you'll have to feel I'm out to get you somehow. I cannot conceive of a situation in which I'm alright with pedophilic or hebephilic works (fannish or otherwise) being accepted as okay.

the very notion that pedophilia has a widespread influence within fandom is one that originates outside this comm

I haven't said it does and I'm not sure where you think I have.

so of course experience of and references to what has already happened around the "pedophilia discourse" is going enter the discussion.

If you are incapable of responding to what I've actually said, without projecting your grievances with others onto me, that's a problem of yours, not of mine. You'll notice I haven't given you the same treatment, regardless of having been verbally attacked outside this thread in very inappropriate and uncivil ways by members of your camp.

I'm glad I've had over a decade to enjoy fandom before this latest attempt to purge it of undesirable elements came along.

That's funny. I was going to say I'm glad I've had over a decade to enjoy fandom before this ideology sprang up that even pedophilic fanworks must be seen as okay.

But as far as I'm concerned, pedophilic fanfic and fanart shouldn't be permitted on major public archives.

I need to make another donation to the AO3 soon, I see. They're valuable simply because they don't listen to handwringers like you.

Guess what anon: I donate to AO3 too.

The world is not black and white. Please try to comprehend that.

I'm glad to hear you're putting your money toward an organization that fights against your prudish mentality, I guess?

I'm not going to praise your fic, and I might post to my own personal space about how much I dislike and am disturbed by underage noncon fanfic.

Why on earth are you focusing on this like it's some kind of alleged epidemic? (hint: it's not)

The fact that you're writing like you think this is super uber common makes me wonder if you're mostly strawmanning this argument for your own personal dogma.

...I'm pretty sure most people reading for fun have the basic reading comprehension to grasp that this fic that's being written entirely from the underage party's perspective is, in fact, meant to be experienced from the underage party's perspective and not that of the adult party. That's how perspective in fiction works.

Sigh. The perspective that's missing or ambiguous isn't the victim's perspective. It's the author's perspective.

The author may be putting themselves in the victim's shoes and getting off, but the majority of readers wont share the author's perspective. They won't go "well, obviously I'm meant to experience this as a cathartic and arousing playing out of my rape fantasy, and I do!"

If you don't have a rape fantasy, a fic about character A raping underage character B is just a fic about an adult raping a kid. The perspective the author brings to the fic that makes the fic not horrifying and nauseating, is not shared by the majority of potential readers. All they see is a fic about an adult raping a kid.

Which is why the "people who write underage noncon are writing it from the perspective of the kid" arguement does not resolve the issue. Because the thing they've created is no less what it is just because they personally are getting off on the victim's experience and not the victimizers.

I can accept and respect that some people have fantasies of being raped. But that doesn't change how I feel about them posting hebephilic or pedophilic fanfic to public forums.

Okay, but why seek out content that's explicitly been warned for when you have no interest in it? imo underage noncon has its place in fandom but that doesn't mean you or I need to interact with it. Just because you don't seem to, doesn't mean people consuming that content aren't fully aware of where it comes from.

I've stumbled across quite a few simply because they weren't tagged appropriately. That said, correct tagging doesn't make me agree that kind of content should have a place on the major fanworks sites.

AYRT - and yet, if I'd had the temerity to turn my fantasies into fanfic, you and your pals would have been only too happy to label me a creepy pedo fantasising about hot teens, because of course hormonal teenagers with internet access aren't going to write smutty fic, are they?

Um, no? I have actively defended teens who were being criticized for writing explicit underage fanfic. I hold that it's inappropriate for an adult to knowingly read the teen's explicit underage fanfic for pleasure. But the teen is just being a teen in fandom. The most I would do (if they didn't already understand it themselves) is explain to them why it's got some of the older fans skeeved.

How do you know how old someone is??? This is the internet? If I say I'm 57 how is that more or less credible than me being 17?

Why don't you just go sit with the "Tell me your trauma so I can decide whether you're allowed to write rape!fic" crowd, okay?

NAYRT, but honestly, I know the ages or approximate ages of a whole lot of the people I follow on tumbler. Why? Because they usually mention them at one point or another, and I have a good memory for information like that.

Also, whether you've been sexually assaulted has literally zero effect on how I feel on this issue, one way or the other, and nothing AYRT has said makes it seem like that's a major factor for them either. The issue here is, are you an adult fantasizing about kids, or aren't you? If you are, that's dodgy. If you're not, then it's a non-issue.

I'm OP, thanks for this. I totally agree. :)

[ SECRET POST #3888 ]

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

NAYRT

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP

Re: You're not special OP