Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-06-20 05:11 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-06-20 05:11 pm
[ SECRET POST #532 ]
⌈ Secret Post #532 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #076.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
143
(Also, tell me what's sexist about the end of forst of the dead, as one above poster said. River is strong and badass and saves the world and ends up getting saved in the matrix. So she got to be all yay mommy to computer kids. So what? You show a guy hanging out with his adopted children and no one goes ZOMG SEXIST, they go OMG SEXY FAMILY MAN.)
Re: 143
Buuuuut... All that said, what struck me as "hruh" (that is, a little confusing and out of left field) about the end of FotD was that River had never expressed any interest in having children, or having a new relationship with anyone, but the machine world happy ending -bang- gives us children to show that she's happy. It didn't make sense because she just didn't seem like the kind of character who'd want kids. Now, fair's fair, Donna doesn't either, but they built up to it so it worked (for me). But I would think a woman like River's idea of paradise would be more about infinite worlds to explore that three fictional kids tucked in bed. It didn't seem downright sexist to me until I read the interview, and then it kind of soured a bit, because I could see the opinion pretty clearly.
But other than that...I think Moffat's done a brilliant job of lampooning both genders equally, and honestly, I don't mind someone taking the piss about stereotypical girliness if they do the same about stereotypical manliness as well.
And he writes kick-butt women.
Re: 143
Honestly, if you weed through Doctor Who even some of the most feminist stuff seems kind of sexist... the way Martha was handled in particular pisses me right off. (Bite me, Stephen Greenhorn!) It's like, ooh, let's take the most gar companion we've got and marry her off and then traumatize her out of ever wanting to travel again. Of course, Martha's strength comes from her strong ties to famiy, as a child rather than any particular feminine thing, but I can't help but feel like they're using tom milligan as an excuse to get rid of her, especially after the Doctor's Daughter. And then don't even get me started on Lucy Saxon. Eugh.
And the truth is... honestly, I think I'm a feminist, but some of the best feminists I find I find out about through misogynist comments like that. Frankly, they're right. Women usually are more likely to want to settle down. Women are socialized that way, men are not. We have it beaten into us society that women make homes and gossip and men stick their screwdrivers into things. It's not necessarily inborn, but it is trained. I know I often get bored of female characters because they don't have personality, they're just there to be boobalicious. A lot of times I just get around it by writing male characters.
Like honestly, I can't stand Rose. Season one she seemed fine, but season 2 she was like a bad characteriture of a bitchy teenage girl. I hope that she'll be more mature and like her S1 self in the future. Martha I love and Donna I hated in Runaway Bride, but just adore now. I also like the way gender, sex, and settling down are balanced in this show. I mean, all the companions are shown as very sexual creatures (everyone except Martha, really, she's kind of repressed and it's obvious why, lol CRAZY DIVORCED FAMILY), but all the companions are also shown with a sort of need to settle down--even, or perhaps especially, Jack. I think that Donna's a great balance between "savin the bloody world" and "zomg babies!" They're not mutually exclusive... but sometimes you have to choose.
I don't know, I'm not seeing it myself. Moffat might be a little sexist sure, but in this society, who can blame the guy? He speaks to what things are really like, even if that's not quite how they ought to be.
Also, mother hen feminist Sarah Jane in the SJA is almost as great as gar feminist Sarah Jane in the old series. I think I only like old Sarah more becuase she's prettier to look at, and I like my Doctors and companions gorgeous. (Martha Jones and the eighth Doctor can verb my noun any time)
Re: 143
I don't see how it's any more sexist for Martha not to want to travel with the Doctor because she's getting married. That's what everyone complained about with Rose--she wanted to travel with him "forever" (never mind that it was whimsical, not statement-of-fact), and didn't seem to be wanting to "grow up" and get a life outside of the Doctor. But the Doctor's had companions leave him to get married before. Evelyn Smyth, Peri, Mel (well, less married, but staying with a different guy), Leela.
I like Lucy Saxon, but only because I'm convinced (I'm such a tin-hat) that she and the Master had the whole "shoot me if I'm losing" back-up plan prepared all along, and that the abuse would've been necessary as a cover. Yeah, it's out there, but darn it, I like evil couples.
I honestly don't understand what the problem is with Rose in season 2. In SR, she behaves no worse than Sarah Jane, is the first to apologize, and by the end of it, not only are they friends, but she also understands and accepts that she is not the first and won't be the last, so much so that she does not get uber-jealous and angry in GitF. Mildly, maybe, but even then, it's toned down considerably from where I think most people in a similar situation would be. Honestly, Rose rarely did anything that I didn't think a real, actual human being would do as a reaction to the situation, while Martha...I don't know, Martha just never felt real. She's the one who seems like a characteriture to me--not horrible, just flat and undeveloped. Even her "crazy divorced family" just felt like a flat representation without actual character, whereas Jackie, Mickey, and even to an extent, Pete, we came to know as people. Martha got shafted, basically. (I also find it much more "b****y" to ask someone you've just met to go against their upbringing and culture just for your amusement, because I hate people trying to get me to swear. To say nothing of her whole "The Doctor will rip your life to shreds" speech to Donna. I don't know, but I thought there was finally some subtext in her lines there). You won't hear me arguing about that last bit, though. Freema is freaking gorgeous.
Buuuut...that's neither here nor there. "Moffat might be a little sexist sure, but in this society, who can blame the guy? He speaks to what things are really like, even if that's not quite how they ought to be."
See, I'm worried about saying that, because it seems like saying "Oh, sexism is okay." But it's not, and your statement is pretty much what I feel. It's not that sexism is okay, it's just that not everyone, I think, has to be a rampant feminist with a super-strong, "I need no man ever!" Xena-like heroine in their stories...
Re: 143
As for Rose... I adore Season 1 Rose. I think she was perfectly written. But it's like in Season 2 something changed. I actually liked her a lot in School Reunion and Girl in the Fireplace. What made me hate her--and the tenth Doctor--is Tooth and Claw. I felt like they both acted like immature children for much of that and I feel like one or both of them should have known better. That sort of soured the rest of the season on me, actually. I didn't like Ten again until Planet of the Ood. Thing is, in terms of her relationship with Ten, I think Season 2 Rose was spot on. In terms of everything else, I feel like someone dropped the ball. It seems to me like they were going for the whole classical hubris plot with her and the Doctor, but I think they pushed a little too hard for it. And it ruined my ability to like her.
Martha I identify a lot with because I come from a similarly splintered family... only far worse. And I ended up sort of becoming a robot to deal with it. So I can sort of see that stoicness she had, that expressionlessness, as repression. Plus I loved how clever she was. I do agree that her family was poorly written though; the only one I thought made any sense was her dad's trampy girlfriend. But that just goes to show you how good acting to one person is bad acting to another. But yes, Martha did get shafted; I feel like her part in The Doctor's Daughter was written as a hasty attempt at closure that was already given, and diminished her character. (The Sontaran Experiment/The Poison Sky was dead on though. A perfect cap onto her character, less the ball dropping with Milligan! And I love Marthatwo).
AS for my comment about sexism, I think I should qualify. I consider myself a feminist. A pretty srs business one. For a long time I've bitched and bitched about the sexism in TV and movies and how we need more wonderful female characters. Then I watched some stuff where I did not expect themes of gender and feminism to come up, including a children's show. After seeing a children's show that was perfectly feminist, with the male and female characters being treated absolutely equally, up to and including a female leader, after seeing an anime where the lead character is a disgusting misogynist and is VILLIFIED for it, I had to re-examine my priorities. I realized that I can enjoy bad stereotypes about women as easily as I can bad stereotypes about men, as long as they're balanced by positive potrayals of each. I realized that stuff where the feminism issue is completely resolved is boring becuase it doesn't resemble the reality I know, and becuase it removes a layer of conflict. I realized that the only way to change these horrible views is to address them, include them in our media, and subvert them.
That is, I'm glad Moffat has a little bit of misogyny he's clinging to becuase that gives the people writing under him something to protest. That gives himself something to protest. I'm glad that Doctor Who has enough conflict in it for feminist characters to have something to struggle against and I'm glad it's not afraid to show traditional wives and mothers, whose lifestyles are a completely valid choice on their own, in a positive and empowering light. A show with no conflict in it isn't much of a show, after all. In some ways, even though it's wacky Sci-fi, Doctor Who reflects the real world. I think you need a measure of misogyny to do that, but that misogyny has to be addressed and resolved. And I think the show is doing a wonderful job of that.