Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-06-28 05:15 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-06-28 05:15 pm
[ SECRET POST #540 ]
⌈ Secret Post #540 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 400 secrets from Secret Submission Post #078.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - internet scientist ], [ 1 - person lost the game ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT
Say that, as in those religions, you have a stance on... say, homosexuality. Some people stick with the very idea that homosexuals are monsters that God will destroy/torment forever and good riddance, they deserve it. Now, that's not all believers, and I'm not trying to say it is. But the ones who believe that it's wrong but should be allowed/forgiven and that God will "fix" these people are also putting something unpleasant out into society. It's unpleasant and belittling. It would be horrible to be disowned by your family for being gay, but it would also be horrible to have your parents say that it's "your choice" but they'll "pray for you" (making a part of your life that should be a happy thing, ie love, feel like something is wrong with you that needs to be fixed), or to be given the impression that well, you can do that in THIS life, but you'll see the light in the next and realize you were led astray (again, something wrong, "less real" and lesser that needs to be fixed).
And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs.
That's what's weird to me. The decent Christians come across to me as really inherently good people who've taken hold of the good parts of the Bible and discarded all the rest because it doesn't make sense to them. And I don't see how they can do that and still believe in the God of the Bible- which they are obviously not taking as scripture in a lot of areas, where they realize that it is being absurd.
Re: 1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT
how people can believe in anything just through faith and think that's at all reasonable.
Not exactly...It's like how you can't really explain or rationalize or even say that emotions are reasonable but they're there anyway, and they're real, and whatever you do you can't chase them away. Being reasonable is quite often overrated, as much as I'd like to believe that everything has to make sense.
I think there is inherent harm in encouraging someone toward delusion
I'll reverse that to how can you keep being in denial that humanity needs something to worship, be it themselves, statues, deities, or whatnots. Calling it delusion for all religions is borderline offensive as many religious people can attest that they are not delusional in the slightest.
But the ones who believe that it's wrong but should be allowed/forgiven and that God will "fix" these people are also putting something unpleasant out into society.
I'm sorry, but by the same logic, so is your belief that we are putting something unpleasant out into society.
For the record, homosexuality is a sin. Period. So the Bible says. Yeah, some churches claim that it's not in the Bible. My point is, it's just a flaw in humanity like egotism is.
making a part of your life that should be a happy thing, ie love, feel like something is wrong with you that needs to be fixed
That would be because we believe that what makes you happy is not always what is good or right. Right now I'm too tired to come up with a relevant example, but...It's the same for homosexuality and sex before marriage, in that only religions will call them sins but totally fine to others.
Honestly, we don't have enough control that we can change whatever we don't like. Hence praying for people. Even if, for example, I am hopelessly smitten with a bad boy and adamant about it and my parents do not agree with my choice on any account, they will probably say "your choice" and "we'll pray for you", presumably so that either I or him see the light. Granted, bad boys are obviously bad but homosexuality is just bad in some religions, still, it's a natural parental reaction.
And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs.
I didn't expect that from a non-Christian's standpoint, lol. I agree. Interpretations and all that, which should explain why there's so many denominations (not that all of the differences does matter all of the time if you ask me). Human nature; Christians are just humans. It just so happens that we do promote free speech and thinking compared to, say, Muslims.
decent Christians
Just curious, do you know many variants of Christians or just the liberal ones and the fundamentalists? Or does decent mean somewhat agreeable to you? I know plenty of Christians who take the Bible seriously, don't pick on just the parts they like, and don't do insane antics like assaulting people with different opinions.
Re: 1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT
how can you keep being in denial that humanity needs something to worship, be it themselves, statues, deities, or whatnots
Because humanity doesn't need something to worship. Sometimes individual people do, but that isn't a good thing- needing to believe in something whether it exists or not isn't a good argument either. Humanity used to need to worship something, used to need those beliefs, but we've come a long way since then.
many religious people can attest that they are not delusional in the slightest
And I really don't mean to be offensive, but there's no way to not be in this case: many delusional people will attest that they are not delusional. That's not a real proof. And of course people who all believe the same thing will swear up and down that other people who believe that thing are not wrong in believing it, too.
but by the same logic, so is your belief that we are putting something unpleasant out into society.
No. I'm sorry. But belittling someone and making them feel like a lesser human being for something that is not harming anyone else is a far worse thing to do than pointing out that it is a bad thing to do so.
And yes, homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible. So are many, many, many other things that 99% of churches have discarded because it "obviously doesn't apply anymore," such as sinners deserving to be stoned to death, etc. Or women being lesser property that should cover her head at all times and not speak up in church. And slavery is a-okay. Obviously these things are ridiculous, but they are Biblical. And a God that is "unchanging" would not change his mind about these things, and a God that is "all-loving" would not promote them.
That is why I'm anti-religion. All over the world there are parents, families, societies, taking someone that is doing something in their life that is not harmful, taking only the word of a book and the belief, but no proof, that it is correct, and making others feel like a bad person. Saying, "this thing makes you happy, and it is an ugly thing you should be ashamed for." And if asked for proof, they point at a book and say "we know because God says so," and if asked for proof of God, they say "we just know." That's why religion isn't a good thing to put out there in society as a belief to be accepted without any sort of proof whatsoever, as opposed to any other aspect of life, in which evidence is required.
Decent Christians, to me, means those that don't belittle other people and try to tell them that they are horrible people for their lifestyle choices. Who don't sit their daughter's girlfriend down and lecture her as to how she is leading their daughter astray and ruining her life until she starts to cry. Who don't boycott movies or an actor's entire career or entire bookstores just because the content might have gay or atheist themes to it. A religion that is decent would not have made me feel like I was disappointing my mother for so long, or make me afraid to tell my father that I am interested in girls. When my mother told me that maybe I'd meet a nice guy, or girl, at my new job, I was more touched than I can say; it literally still makes me almost want to cry.
And I hate to say it, but it's like homosexuality and Hell: if you do not pick and choose parts of the Bible, you would be "assaulting people with different opinions": you would be preaching the word of God to as many people as you could to save their souls of of decency, with no regard as to how it makes you appear or even if it put your life in danger. Even Jesus promoted that. Polite religion isn't Biblical religion- it's sort of approaching the decent religion I'm talking about, though.
oh, the drama in me...
And I hate to say it, but it's like homosexuality and Hell: if you do not pick and choose parts of the Bible, you would be "assaulting people with different opinions": you would be preaching the word of God to as many people as you could to save their souls of of decency, with no regard as to how it makes you appear or even if it put your life in danger. Even Jesus promoted that. Polite religion isn't Biblical religion- it's sort of approaching the decent religion I'm talking about, though.
I don't know. I've always thought that there's a time and place for everything and all types of manners to deal with people. Flat out telling random people they're wrong (...I just realized this now...) isn't always the best option, or...or just, okay. On one hand we're not supposed to compromise. On the other, how is being confrontational and blunt like that going to make people listen to you?
What I really want to say is that we're getting circular and seems to be agreeing to disagreeing more as we go on. I thank you for the quality food for thought that you've given--that's a lot of valid points. I don't have all the answers now; hopefully some day I will, and hopefully I am not too disappointing for now. I wish the best for you :)
Re: oh, the drama in me...
Re: oh, the drama in me...
Personally, I *need* belief. I extrapolte things and have found out that if there wasn't someone in charge of it all, some mysterous meaning behind it all, I *wouldn't* be as nice to others as I try to be - where's the point? And that said, I'd probably be dead because I've had a pretty difficult life and I just wouldn't see a point in continuing on if we're all going to suffer a meaningless, cessation-of-all death in the end. Then again, maybe I'm one of those "weak people humanity just does not need." - I've often thought that, really.
A lot of the "Biblical" things you mentioned have some contradictory verses in the New Testament (as I'm sure you know). "Doing away with" as you said... and a lot of it has different interpretations - hence why there are so many schools of thought/denominations in Christianity. Now, I'm not sure what the New Testament "gay scriptures" mean, myself -- To me, they can be anywhere from very literal to something we've misinterpreted over the years because we lack cultural context. Above all, *I* believe in being decent to people, and that in a Democratic society, we should all have the same rights. Everyone deserves respect.
Still, I can't help but cringe over some of the sampling you gave... being offended that someone wants to *pray* for you? Oh, come on - you may think they're terribly misguided, but *it means they care about you.* That's more than a lot of people have. Anime and the Internet give me pleasure, but if I run into an Amish or similar person who wants to "pray for me" over it, I'm not going to be offended - rather, touched (even as I disagree with them and enjoy my "devil stuff"). Seriously, I'll pray for you for lots of things - to be happy, to have a good life, for you to "see the light" about God if I feel like it. Why should it be so offensive, if prayer is somethint that is in the end meaningless and pointless to you? I'm looking at the sky with my hands folded and saying words, that's it.
As far as making you feel like a lesser person, I'm sorry, but that doesn't necessarily belong to a specific religion or any religion. That belongs to humanity. I've had atheists treat me like I was completely braindead (or insane) because I'm a Christian (or even for "general belief in a Higher Power"). Do you think that's *not* offensive? That it's *not* belittaling? I've been outright called a "waste!" As a result, I get a little twiggy around people when they mention that they're athiests and I have a mental not of "decent Atheists" (just like you have a mental note of "decent Christians").
Hell, I've been treated like I have less intelligence in fandom over something as stupid and petty as preferring an anime version over a manga version of something! Or because I don't enjoy porn fic! Or I don't ship such and such pair!
I do wish the best for you, I just really want people on all sides to think before they label people, or start treating them badly because of beliefs/lack thereof. As I see it we all have many, varied, and very personal reasons for beliving or not believing what we do, that there should be room for all of us, and that, above all, we should be respectful of one another. Failing that, we just avoid the people we don't like.
If you somehow have decided I'm a "decent person," it's quite okay with me if you want to think that I'm a "decent and or intelligent person DESPITE my religion." That doesn't offend me. Only labeling people wholesale as if they can't be this because they are this that pisses me off.
Re: 1/2 GOD I TALK A LOT
Actually there's a fairly strong argument based on the original Greek texts for Christian universalism; the argument that while there is a Hell, it isn't an eternal one, and it's actually more in line with the concept of purgatory. Lots of interesting (well, to me at least) stuff at www.tentmaker.org.
Other than that, I have no interest in contributing to this argument. Carry on.