fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #540 ]

[ SECRET POST #540 ]

⌈ Secret Post #540 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 400 secrets from Secret Submission Post #078.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - internet scientist ], [ 1 - person lost the game ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

It's faith; I don't have to have a proof to believe in it. And yes, you guessed correctly as to what I'd say to some people who believe in fairies, but respecting other people's opinion doesn't necessarily mean that I have to say that they're right. Frankly the call for me is that God the creator of this universe wants to have a loving relationship with a sinful human such as I am. Not even all Christians believe in that, so fine.

My looking for reasons to believe it is a part of an automatic human psychology ( I believe it's called cognitive dissociation). I believe in something, therefore I must know why I believe it (some will ultimately fall back to "I just know"). I am not smart enough to know everything, and therefore I will fall back to "I just know".

What is this "free pass" you speak off anyway? Our society has grown to make it a norm to accept every belief as a possibility. If someone can believe in no deities with or without reason, then why not giving a free pass to someone to believe in whatever deity they choose?

And now that I'm TL;DR myself, I believe we're even ;) No offense in all seriousness and honesty meant.

That's true, you don't have to have belief to have faith, but that's where I think it's baffling: how people can believe in anything just through faith and think that's at all reasonable. Religious people like you I don't mind; as near as I can tell, you're using God as a reason to be good to and love your fellow man, as well as finding something bigger than yourself. I think there is inherent harm in encouraging someone toward delusion, even if it's a nice delusion (such as fairies), but the real problem is the Abrahamic religions at their very core are not loving religions. They have changed and been added to and become sweeter over the years, but their roots were in far less pleasant things- that most people who follow those religion still believe in.

Say that, as in those religions, you have a stance on... say, homosexuality. Some people stick with the very idea that homosexuals are monsters that God will destroy/torment forever and good riddance, they deserve it. Now, that's not all believers, and I'm not trying to say it is. But the ones who believe that it's wrong but should be allowed/forgiven and that God will "fix" these people are also putting something unpleasant out into society. It's unpleasant and belittling. It would be horrible to be disowned by your family for being gay, but it would also be horrible to have your parents say that it's "your choice" but they'll "pray for you" (making a part of your life that should be a happy thing, ie love, feel like something is wrong with you that needs to be fixed), or to be given the impression that well, you can do that in THIS life, but you'll see the light in the next and realize you were led astray (again, something wrong, "less real" and lesser that needs to be fixed).

And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs.

That's what's weird to me. The decent Christians come across to me as really inherently good people who've taken hold of the good parts of the Bible and discarded all the rest because it doesn't make sense to them. And I don't see how they can do that and still believe in the God of the Bible- which they are obviously not taking as scripture in a lot of areas, where they realize that it is being absurd.

I'm so going to be dogpiled for this. Opinions expressed by me are the way they are as I am a Presbyterian.

how people can believe in anything just through faith and think that's at all reasonable.

Not exactly...It's like how you can't really explain or rationalize or even say that emotions are reasonable but they're there anyway, and they're real, and whatever you do you can't chase them away. Being reasonable is quite often overrated, as much as I'd like to believe that everything has to make sense.

I think there is inherent harm in encouraging someone toward delusion
I'll reverse that to how can you keep being in denial that humanity needs something to worship, be it themselves, statues, deities, or whatnots. Calling it delusion for all religions is borderline offensive as many religious people can attest that they are not delusional in the slightest.

But the ones who believe that it's wrong but should be allowed/forgiven and that God will "fix" these people are also putting something unpleasant out into society.

I'm sorry, but by the same logic, so is your belief that we are putting something unpleasant out into society.

For the record, homosexuality is a sin. Period. So the Bible says. Yeah, some churches claim that it's not in the Bible. My point is, it's just a flaw in humanity like egotism is.

making a part of your life that should be a happy thing, ie love, feel like something is wrong with you that needs to be fixed

That would be because we believe that what makes you happy is not always what is good or right. Right now I'm too tired to come up with a relevant example, but...It's the same for homosexuality and sex before marriage, in that only religions will call them sins but totally fine to others.

Honestly, we don't have enough control that we can change whatever we don't like. Hence praying for people. Even if, for example, I am hopelessly smitten with a bad boy and adamant about it and my parents do not agree with my choice on any account, they will probably say "your choice" and "we'll pray for you", presumably so that either I or him see the light. Granted, bad boys are obviously bad but homosexuality is just bad in some religions, still, it's a natural parental reaction.

And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs.

I didn't expect that from a non-Christian's standpoint, lol. I agree. Interpretations and all that, which should explain why there's so many denominations (not that all of the differences does matter all of the time if you ask me). Human nature; Christians are just humans. It just so happens that we do promote free speech and thinking compared to, say, Muslims.

decent Christians

Just curious, do you know many variants of Christians or just the liberal ones and the fundamentalists? Or does decent mean somewhat agreeable to you? I know plenty of Christians who take the Bible seriously, don't pick on just the parts they like, and don't do insane antics like assaulting people with different opinions.

Emotions are there, and they exist, and they can be good things. But emotions are also something that should not dictate all our decisions. And emotions are not a replacement for thought, either. They can be very helpful, and for example you can have a gut feeling that someone is a good person- but if all they do is abuse you and do horrible things, that emotion and feeling that they're a good person underneath it all needs to be given some serious scrutiny after a while.

how can you keep being in denial that humanity needs something to worship, be it themselves, statues, deities, or whatnots

Because humanity doesn't need something to worship. Sometimes individual people do, but that isn't a good thing- needing to believe in something whether it exists or not isn't a good argument either. Humanity used to need to worship something, used to need those beliefs, but we've come a long way since then.

many religious people can attest that they are not delusional in the slightest

And I really don't mean to be offensive, but there's no way to not be in this case: many delusional people will attest that they are not delusional. That's not a real proof. And of course people who all believe the same thing will swear up and down that other people who believe that thing are not wrong in believing it, too.

but by the same logic, so is your belief that we are putting something unpleasant out into society.

No. I'm sorry. But belittling someone and making them feel like a lesser human being for something that is not harming anyone else is a far worse thing to do than pointing out that it is a bad thing to do so.

And yes, homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible. So are many, many, many other things that 99% of churches have discarded because it "obviously doesn't apply anymore," such as sinners deserving to be stoned to death, etc. Or women being lesser property that should cover her head at all times and not speak up in church. And slavery is a-okay. Obviously these things are ridiculous, but they are Biblical. And a God that is "unchanging" would not change his mind about these things, and a God that is "all-loving" would not promote them.

That is why I'm anti-religion. All over the world there are parents, families, societies, taking someone that is doing something in their life that is not harmful, taking only the word of a book and the belief, but no proof, that it is correct, and making others feel like a bad person. Saying, "this thing makes you happy, and it is an ugly thing you should be ashamed for." And if asked for proof, they point at a book and say "we know because God says so," and if asked for proof of God, they say "we just know." That's why religion isn't a good thing to put out there in society as a belief to be accepted without any sort of proof whatsoever, as opposed to any other aspect of life, in which evidence is required.

Decent Christians, to me, means those that don't belittle other people and try to tell them that they are horrible people for their lifestyle choices. Who don't sit their daughter's girlfriend down and lecture her as to how she is leading their daughter astray and ruining her life until she starts to cry. Who don't boycott movies or an actor's entire career or entire bookstores just because the content might have gay or atheist themes to it. A religion that is decent would not have made me feel like I was disappointing my mother for so long, or make me afraid to tell my father that I am interested in girls. When my mother told me that maybe I'd meet a nice guy, or girl, at my new job, I was more touched than I can say; it literally still makes me almost want to cry.

And I hate to say it, but it's like homosexuality and Hell: if you do not pick and choose parts of the Bible, you would be "assaulting people with different opinions": you would be preaching the word of God to as many people as you could to save their souls of of decency, with no regard as to how it makes you appear or even if it put your life in danger. Even Jesus promoted that. Polite religion isn't Biblical religion- it's sort of approaching the decent religion I'm talking about, though.

And I hate to say it, but it's like homosexuality and Hell: if you do not pick and choose parts of the Bible, you would be "assaulting people with different opinions": you would be preaching the word of God to as many people as you could to save their souls of of decency, with no regard as to how it makes you appear or even if it put your life in danger. Even Jesus promoted that. Polite religion isn't Biblical religion- it's sort of approaching the decent religion I'm talking about, though.

I don't know. I've always thought that there's a time and place for everything and all types of manners to deal with people. Flat out telling random people they're wrong (...I just realized this now...) isn't always the best option, or...or just, okay. On one hand we're not supposed to compromise. On the other, how is being confrontational and blunt like that going to make people listen to you?

What I really want to say is that we're getting circular and seems to be agreeing to disagreeing more as we go on. I thank you for the quality food for thought that you've given--that's a lot of valid points. I don't have all the answers now; hopefully some day I will, and hopefully I am not too disappointing for now. I wish the best for you :)

You too, and it was nice discussing with you- I'm glad I could make you think, and you certainly did while I was thinking about what I wanted to say. I hope you have a good life, and the people around you have a good life- that's really what I hope for, for the world, in the end. :>

I just wanted to say that it's really hard to define things when people get into "decent" and "unpleasant for society," and "what humanity needs/does not need anymore."

Personally, I *need* belief. I extrapolte things and have found out that if there wasn't someone in charge of it all, some mysterous meaning behind it all, I *wouldn't* be as nice to others as I try to be - where's the point? And that said, I'd probably be dead because I've had a pretty difficult life and I just wouldn't see a point in continuing on if we're all going to suffer a meaningless, cessation-of-all death in the end. Then again, maybe I'm one of those "weak people humanity just does not need." - I've often thought that, really.

A lot of the "Biblical" things you mentioned have some contradictory verses in the New Testament (as I'm sure you know). "Doing away with" as you said... and a lot of it has different interpretations - hence why there are so many schools of thought/denominations in Christianity. Now, I'm not sure what the New Testament "gay scriptures" mean, myself -- To me, they can be anywhere from very literal to something we've misinterpreted over the years because we lack cultural context. Above all, *I* believe in being decent to people, and that in a Democratic society, we should all have the same rights. Everyone deserves respect.

Still, I can't help but cringe over some of the sampling you gave... being offended that someone wants to *pray* for you? Oh, come on - you may think they're terribly misguided, but *it means they care about you.* That's more than a lot of people have. Anime and the Internet give me pleasure, but if I run into an Amish or similar person who wants to "pray for me" over it, I'm not going to be offended - rather, touched (even as I disagree with them and enjoy my "devil stuff"). Seriously, I'll pray for you for lots of things - to be happy, to have a good life, for you to "see the light" about God if I feel like it. Why should it be so offensive, if prayer is somethint that is in the end meaningless and pointless to you? I'm looking at the sky with my hands folded and saying words, that's it.

As far as making you feel like a lesser person, I'm sorry, but that doesn't necessarily belong to a specific religion or any religion. That belongs to humanity. I've had atheists treat me like I was completely braindead (or insane) because I'm a Christian (or even for "general belief in a Higher Power"). Do you think that's *not* offensive? That it's *not* belittaling? I've been outright called a "waste!" As a result, I get a little twiggy around people when they mention that they're athiests and I have a mental not of "decent Atheists" (just like you have a mental note of "decent Christians").

Hell, I've been treated like I have less intelligence in fandom over something as stupid and petty as preferring an anime version over a manga version of something! Or because I don't enjoy porn fic! Or I don't ship such and such pair!

I do wish the best for you, I just really want people on all sides to think before they label people, or start treating them badly because of beliefs/lack thereof. As I see it we all have many, varied, and very personal reasons for beliving or not believing what we do, that there should be room for all of us, and that, above all, we should be respectful of one another. Failing that, we just avoid the people we don't like.

If you somehow have decided I'm a "decent person," it's quite okay with me if you want to think that I'm a "decent and or intelligent person DESPITE my religion." That doesn't offend me. Only labeling people wholesale as if they can't be this because they are this that pisses me off.

"And, I'm sorry to say, but those who say there is nothing Biblically wrong with homosexuality aren't actually taking a Biblical stance on it. They are picking and choosing. The same with Christians who don't believe that souls will either be tortured or given a final judgement and destroyed: Christians say all the time that not all Christians believe that, and that may be the case. But they're not following the Bible in their beliefs."

Actually there's a fairly strong argument based on the original Greek texts for Christian universalism; the argument that while there is a Hell, it isn't an eternal one, and it's actually more in line with the concept of purgatory. Lots of interesting (well, to me at least) stuff at www.tentmaker.org.

Other than that, I have no interest in contributing to this argument. Carry on.

As for the "free pass," it's what you've described, pretty much. Our society has not made it a norm to accept every belief as fact. As possibility, yes- but again, you're jumping from theory to law without proving anything except "I think it's true." Someone who believes there might be aliens is acceptable in society, but someone who thinks that they're abducting people and walking around among us, as a fact, just because they "have a feeling" isn't acceptable at all. And that's the thing: even if it's a harmless belief (which, in most cases, Abrahamic religion is not), it's still promoting the idea of believing in something completely with no proof- ie, believing whatever you're told instead of actually thinking about it. And sadly, I think too many people do that these days anyway. It's easy to go with the crowd, and harder to actually look into what you believe and why you believe it, especially if it's a comfortable belief.

I'd love to believe in a Creator that loves everyone equally. And if there is a God like that, if I ever find a reason to believe in him that holds up beyond my wanting it to be true, I'll believe it happily. But saying that it's just as reasonable to believe in God without proof as to disbelieve in God without proof is like saying it's reasonable to firmly believe there's a monster under my bed until proven otherwise, instead of the other way around. The fear can be strong enough to be pure belief, but in the end, unless substantiated, it's a childish fear.

No big deal here, I really do like debating this. You seem reasonable, really, and you're one of the religious types that I find very inoffensive: I just am inherently :/ about a religion that says "we're all right, you're all wrong, so join us or die" at its core while saying that any sort of proof is not only unnecessary, it shouldn't even be searched for.

Now I'm half lost as to what encompass Abrahamic religion or how they're harmless. My built in defense is that people interpret things differently and that different denominations act differently. Which is to say: I don't believe that at the core Christianity is about causing harm to other people but in a world of actions and consequences it's inevitable.

My personal analogy is that you can call a tree a stone if you want, but sometimes a tree is just a tree and definitely not a stone. Or in the old days, whether the earth is flat or round. 4000 years ago it would be very hard to prove which is true or not, and you can either whip out a very good reason why or just say that it is. (As a side note, the Bible actually says that the world is round (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2040:22&version=31)). Frustrating as it is, sometimes you just can't prove it now. And then we jump from theory to law because we do need something to guide our way of living.

it's still promoting the idea of believing in something completely with no proof- ie, believing whatever you're told instead of actually thinking about it

And ultimately it's entirely up to that person as well as that person's responsibility as to what they believe or do with their life. It's not limited to religious folks where people like to just go with the flow without thinking. You can't say that it's religion's fault; on the other hand there are people blindly believing in science without actually knowing what science it is. And I'm not just talking about people who are used to religion before switching to science.

I'd love to believe in a Creator that loves everyone equally. And if there is a God like that, if I ever find a reason to believe in him that holds up beyond my wanting it to be true, I'll believe it happily. But saying that it's just as reasonable to believe in God without proof as to disbelieve in God without proof is like saying it's reasonable to firmly believe there's a monster under my bed until proven otherwise, instead of the other way around. The fear can be strong enough to be pure belief, but in the end, unless substantiated, it's a childish fear.

That's why the Bible is so important to us. That's one of your proofs, right there. Another is the world around us - how do they all fit in so well as though somebody planned it all along? (And I'm perfectly aware that it can so happen that things do fall into pieces randomly and since that's what the facts are of course we'll claim it's so perfectly arranged because that's the alternative we have.)

I'm a terrible speaker. So, just to cement my less than sane status, if anyone's going to change your mind it's God. Not me.

Sorry- Abrahamic religion is what I like to say instead of Christianity, because it's not just Christianity, it's Judaism and Islam as well. They all stem from the same source, which is the Abrahamic god, they just branched off from each other with the same basic origin. The core of Christianity may not be to cause harm to other people, but at its core all of the Abrahamic religions state: We are Right. You are Wrong. We are the Beloved, and you are cast out. Join us, or you will die (either, as in the old times, being killed for not believing, or the less-violent-in-this-life destruction of the soul that will take place for many people after death). That is the basis of Christianity- that no one who is not a Christian is good enough. It's a religion that revolves around the members debasing themselves. That is its original purpose, and the fact that it's changed over the years for some or even many people is a good thing, but that doesn't change its basis.

I am not going to argue with you about the calling a tree a stone. This is true. You cannot call something a stone with no proof, and if there is proof that it is a tree instead, it would be ridiculous to call it a stone. Do you really believe you cannot prove the world is round? Really?

I'm not saying that it's religion's fault that people do it, but religion isn't helping. And encouraging people to believe in religion is not promoting people toward critical thinking, but instead letting them get into a habit of not thinking for themselves or questioning. And please, tell me: what do you think science is? There are too many people blindly rejecting science without knowing what science is, because it disagrees with what they feel in their hearts to be true, and that is what's disappointing here.

The Bible is no proof. That's what I'm trying to get across. It is a book that says things happened and are going to happen that there is no evidence for, and plenty of evidence against. Just because I'd like to believe in a Creator who loves me, doesn't mean I am going to accept the Bible as "proof"- that's circular logic. I want to believe in a God, and the Bible says there is a God, therefore the Bible is real, and if the Bible is real, then God exists. That's not proof. Things do fit together well, but not as well as someone who uses that argument for God would think- I have heard the same person praise the human body as being absolutely amazing and the pinnacle of nature and proof of God, and then explain how all the flaws of the human body are God's punishment for sin, practically in the same breath.

Ultimately, proof that something exists lies in the person positing the existance of that thing. That's what many people don't understand. If I say there's an invisible unicorn in the room, it's not up to you to prove that there isn't one. That would be ridiculous. If I say something like that, I had better be able to provide proof of its existance. Until then, the idea that it might be there is just that- an idea, not a fact- and a farfetched idea at that.

It's true- if anyone is going to change my mind, it would be God. If there is one, it will be proven or obvious sooner or later. A God that has a direct hand in human affairs will leave traces and proofs of himself. And even if he doesn't, if I die and find an all-loving God waiting for me, I won't deny him. Proof, not wishful thinking, is what will change my mind, and not the fact that other people feel it in their hearts that it must be so.

Did I mention you're hardcore?

Hardcore, longwinded, they're all fine choices. XD;; B-but really, thanks! It's pretty flattering to hear.

Well, at least from my perspective, Christians aren't "good enough" either - that's why Jesus had to die, yadda, yadda, and in the end, he wants everyone - it's just up to you whether or not you're going to reach out in faith and come to him. (I'm not trying to convert you, by the way, just laying down basic Christian belief).

As I see it God doesn't *want* anyone to go to Hell, he just is bound by cosmic spiritual laws regarding his nature (much like we are bound by the laws of physics). Mostly, he respects you too much to mess with your free will. It's the very same reason there are so many problems in the world: Humans are Bastards theory.

If Christianity is "self-debasing" - I actually, personally, see a lot of sense in that. I subscribe to "Humans are Bastards" theory - because (see what I said above about having a difficult life?) by and large, my experience has proved it true. I think we try, and it's noble, but we can never be truly "good" on our own. I can't tell you how many people I've seen who thought they were good because they acted benevolently to a few select people, only to turn around and completely tear into someone else for being a bit "different."

Speaking as a Christian, I'm not "good," or "good enough" - I am, above all, a human. Humans slip up and we make bad decisions.

Honestly, not trying to convert you here or anything, just spelling out a little bit why I believe what I do and why it's really "not so insane" to me. Then again, I'm not the sanest person in the world, either, and I never will be.

You actually remind me of a character I wrote once. I once dabbled in doing a post-apocalyptic sci fi comic and my main character was a swordsman who was an Atheist. He was raised by Christians and respected his family, but he decided that if he "ever met God" he would run him through with his swords. He wasn't an evil character, in fact, he was my main mostly-good guy/anti-hero with a strong belief in freedom. And, no this character was not going to let me "convert" him - is just the way his personality evolved in the writing, and I wasn't portaying him as necessiarly "wrong," either. He was just an interesting character that popped out of my head. I may take the comic up again someday, if I do, you've given me some interesting "research," as it were.

To add:

For Christians, at least all the sects that I know, it's not so much "join us or die," as it is "There is a fire. Please evacuate the building."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #540 ]

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