fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #540 ]

[ SECRET POST #540 ]

⌈ Secret Post #540 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 400 secrets from Secret Submission Post #078.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - internet scientist ], [ 1 - person lost the game ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

As for the "free pass," it's what you've described, pretty much. Our society has not made it a norm to accept every belief as fact. As possibility, yes- but again, you're jumping from theory to law without proving anything except "I think it's true." Someone who believes there might be aliens is acceptable in society, but someone who thinks that they're abducting people and walking around among us, as a fact, just because they "have a feeling" isn't acceptable at all. And that's the thing: even if it's a harmless belief (which, in most cases, Abrahamic religion is not), it's still promoting the idea of believing in something completely with no proof- ie, believing whatever you're told instead of actually thinking about it. And sadly, I think too many people do that these days anyway. It's easy to go with the crowd, and harder to actually look into what you believe and why you believe it, especially if it's a comfortable belief.

I'd love to believe in a Creator that loves everyone equally. And if there is a God like that, if I ever find a reason to believe in him that holds up beyond my wanting it to be true, I'll believe it happily. But saying that it's just as reasonable to believe in God without proof as to disbelieve in God without proof is like saying it's reasonable to firmly believe there's a monster under my bed until proven otherwise, instead of the other way around. The fear can be strong enough to be pure belief, but in the end, unless substantiated, it's a childish fear.

No big deal here, I really do like debating this. You seem reasonable, really, and you're one of the religious types that I find very inoffensive: I just am inherently :/ about a religion that says "we're all right, you're all wrong, so join us or die" at its core while saying that any sort of proof is not only unnecessary, it shouldn't even be searched for.

Now I'm half lost as to what encompass Abrahamic religion or how they're harmless. My built in defense is that people interpret things differently and that different denominations act differently. Which is to say: I don't believe that at the core Christianity is about causing harm to other people but in a world of actions and consequences it's inevitable.

My personal analogy is that you can call a tree a stone if you want, but sometimes a tree is just a tree and definitely not a stone. Or in the old days, whether the earth is flat or round. 4000 years ago it would be very hard to prove which is true or not, and you can either whip out a very good reason why or just say that it is. (As a side note, the Bible actually says that the world is round (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2040:22&version=31)). Frustrating as it is, sometimes you just can't prove it now. And then we jump from theory to law because we do need something to guide our way of living.

it's still promoting the idea of believing in something completely with no proof- ie, believing whatever you're told instead of actually thinking about it

And ultimately it's entirely up to that person as well as that person's responsibility as to what they believe or do with their life. It's not limited to religious folks where people like to just go with the flow without thinking. You can't say that it's religion's fault; on the other hand there are people blindly believing in science without actually knowing what science it is. And I'm not just talking about people who are used to religion before switching to science.

I'd love to believe in a Creator that loves everyone equally. And if there is a God like that, if I ever find a reason to believe in him that holds up beyond my wanting it to be true, I'll believe it happily. But saying that it's just as reasonable to believe in God without proof as to disbelieve in God without proof is like saying it's reasonable to firmly believe there's a monster under my bed until proven otherwise, instead of the other way around. The fear can be strong enough to be pure belief, but in the end, unless substantiated, it's a childish fear.

That's why the Bible is so important to us. That's one of your proofs, right there. Another is the world around us - how do they all fit in so well as though somebody planned it all along? (And I'm perfectly aware that it can so happen that things do fall into pieces randomly and since that's what the facts are of course we'll claim it's so perfectly arranged because that's the alternative we have.)

I'm a terrible speaker. So, just to cement my less than sane status, if anyone's going to change your mind it's God. Not me.

Sorry- Abrahamic religion is what I like to say instead of Christianity, because it's not just Christianity, it's Judaism and Islam as well. They all stem from the same source, which is the Abrahamic god, they just branched off from each other with the same basic origin. The core of Christianity may not be to cause harm to other people, but at its core all of the Abrahamic religions state: We are Right. You are Wrong. We are the Beloved, and you are cast out. Join us, or you will die (either, as in the old times, being killed for not believing, or the less-violent-in-this-life destruction of the soul that will take place for many people after death). That is the basis of Christianity- that no one who is not a Christian is good enough. It's a religion that revolves around the members debasing themselves. That is its original purpose, and the fact that it's changed over the years for some or even many people is a good thing, but that doesn't change its basis.

I am not going to argue with you about the calling a tree a stone. This is true. You cannot call something a stone with no proof, and if there is proof that it is a tree instead, it would be ridiculous to call it a stone. Do you really believe you cannot prove the world is round? Really?

I'm not saying that it's religion's fault that people do it, but religion isn't helping. And encouraging people to believe in religion is not promoting people toward critical thinking, but instead letting them get into a habit of not thinking for themselves or questioning. And please, tell me: what do you think science is? There are too many people blindly rejecting science without knowing what science is, because it disagrees with what they feel in their hearts to be true, and that is what's disappointing here.

The Bible is no proof. That's what I'm trying to get across. It is a book that says things happened and are going to happen that there is no evidence for, and plenty of evidence against. Just because I'd like to believe in a Creator who loves me, doesn't mean I am going to accept the Bible as "proof"- that's circular logic. I want to believe in a God, and the Bible says there is a God, therefore the Bible is real, and if the Bible is real, then God exists. That's not proof. Things do fit together well, but not as well as someone who uses that argument for God would think- I have heard the same person praise the human body as being absolutely amazing and the pinnacle of nature and proof of God, and then explain how all the flaws of the human body are God's punishment for sin, practically in the same breath.

Ultimately, proof that something exists lies in the person positing the existance of that thing. That's what many people don't understand. If I say there's an invisible unicorn in the room, it's not up to you to prove that there isn't one. That would be ridiculous. If I say something like that, I had better be able to provide proof of its existance. Until then, the idea that it might be there is just that- an idea, not a fact- and a farfetched idea at that.

It's true- if anyone is going to change my mind, it would be God. If there is one, it will be proven or obvious sooner or later. A God that has a direct hand in human affairs will leave traces and proofs of himself. And even if he doesn't, if I die and find an all-loving God waiting for me, I won't deny him. Proof, not wishful thinking, is what will change my mind, and not the fact that other people feel it in their hearts that it must be so.

Did I mention you're hardcore?

Hardcore, longwinded, they're all fine choices. XD;; B-but really, thanks! It's pretty flattering to hear.

Well, at least from my perspective, Christians aren't "good enough" either - that's why Jesus had to die, yadda, yadda, and in the end, he wants everyone - it's just up to you whether or not you're going to reach out in faith and come to him. (I'm not trying to convert you, by the way, just laying down basic Christian belief).

As I see it God doesn't *want* anyone to go to Hell, he just is bound by cosmic spiritual laws regarding his nature (much like we are bound by the laws of physics). Mostly, he respects you too much to mess with your free will. It's the very same reason there are so many problems in the world: Humans are Bastards theory.

If Christianity is "self-debasing" - I actually, personally, see a lot of sense in that. I subscribe to "Humans are Bastards" theory - because (see what I said above about having a difficult life?) by and large, my experience has proved it true. I think we try, and it's noble, but we can never be truly "good" on our own. I can't tell you how many people I've seen who thought they were good because they acted benevolently to a few select people, only to turn around and completely tear into someone else for being a bit "different."

Speaking as a Christian, I'm not "good," or "good enough" - I am, above all, a human. Humans slip up and we make bad decisions.

Honestly, not trying to convert you here or anything, just spelling out a little bit why I believe what I do and why it's really "not so insane" to me. Then again, I'm not the sanest person in the world, either, and I never will be.

You actually remind me of a character I wrote once. I once dabbled in doing a post-apocalyptic sci fi comic and my main character was a swordsman who was an Atheist. He was raised by Christians and respected his family, but he decided that if he "ever met God" he would run him through with his swords. He wasn't an evil character, in fact, he was my main mostly-good guy/anti-hero with a strong belief in freedom. And, no this character was not going to let me "convert" him - is just the way his personality evolved in the writing, and I wasn't portaying him as necessiarly "wrong," either. He was just an interesting character that popped out of my head. I may take the comic up again someday, if I do, you've given me some interesting "research," as it were.

To add:

For Christians, at least all the sects that I know, it's not so much "join us or die," as it is "There is a fire. Please evacuate the building."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #540 ]

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